Radio 'altercation' with ATC

On 10 Dec 2004 14:24:54 -0800, wrote:

So...what is your take on this?

I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.

I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90. Squawk
0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
before wheels up before!

Thoroughly confused, thinking I was calling on the wrong frequency, look at
my com 2 and saw I was on the correct frequency. I keyed the mike up, 43L
listening on 123.90. Because he befuddled me, I had to re-ask the squawk
code, which of course didn't make him any happier. I confirmed the squawk,
and continued on to the practice area.

Personally, I was confused and mad at the same time as I sure didn't expect
the kind of treatment I received. So, I had to say to myself, the less
said the better, get the squawk code and enjoy the flight.

I think the controller must have thought diffently later on his initial
contact with me, as he was nice as pie when I wanted to return to my
airport.

So, in a nutshell, I have to agree with others, there is no time for
arguing on the radio. Do what ATC says, and resolve it on the ground. Of
course, if ATC says something contrary to safety, I would exercise my PIC
duties.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:


Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90. Squawk
0104.

To which you reply..."I don't think so, squawk 0104." When they're
clearly wrong I don't hesitate to give them the needle.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.

I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90.
Squawk
0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
before wheels up before!


You don't have to call before departure, just before entering Class C
airspace.

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:25:22 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...

I had something similar happen to me, but I think it was a controller
misunderstanding of my situation or he was having a bad day.

I reside under charlie airspace. I took off, turn out toward the NE
practice area. I listened, approach was jockeying several planes, so I
maintained 500 feet below the floor of charlie airspace. I called in
Approach 43L. Approach didn't acknowledge and about 1 minute later, I
called in again Approach, Sundowner 12345L, one thousand 400 feet 2 miles
north of Madison, headed to the NE practice area. Approach said to me,
43L, you are suppose to call before you leave the ground on 123.90.
Squawk
0104. HUH??????? I am doing VFR to the practice area! Never had to call
before wheels up before!


You don't have to call before departure, just before entering Class C
airspace.

Hey Steven,

Yeah, I knew that, thus my reason for staying 500 feet below the floor of
Charlie airspace (see above).

I really think the controller may have had me mixed up with an IFR
departure or was simply having a real bad day.

Allen

wrote:



Cessna "Airport B tower, this is Cessna 123, 2000 off of airport A, 10
miles North, inbound landing with kilo"

Tower "Roger, Cessna, you will be number 2 for runway 21R, follow
Cherokee traffic at your 11 O'Clock, you also have Cherokee traffic
transitioning at your 2 O'Clock, and Skyhawk traffic inbound on the ILS
for the parallel. Maintain visual separation."

All is fine except for the maintain visual separation part. That makes
no sense, even if you did have all the aircraft is sight.



Tower "Cessna, what are you doing out there?"

Cessna "Tower, that Cherokee isn't making much progress, we're making a
couple 360s for spacing"

Very bad on the Cessna's part.


Tower (in a nasty tone) "Negative Cessna! You're following the wrong
Cherokee. You need my permission before making any maneuvers like
that. If you are inbound, you need to be a direct heading *to* my
airport. You can't be doing that kind of stuff without telling me."

The controller should have made sure the Cessna was following the right
aircraft but he's right about the 360's. Cessna pilot should have
called before starting manuvers like that.



[pause]

Cessna "Tower, I was following the Cherokee that was at my 11. Sorry
if I got the wrong one. But sir, I am VFR, *outside* of your
airspace...if I feel the need to do a 360 to maintain safe spacing,
that's exactly what I will do...I'm outside of your airspace. I don't
need your permission to do *anything* until I enter it. Turning 210 for
landing now"

He's technically right but practically wrong.


I also told him that it usually wasn't a good idea to have an
altercation like that on the radio. That if the pilot wanted to talk to
the controller about that, he should have waited until he was on the
ground, and called the tower and asked to speak with a supervisor.


Probably no supervisor at the tower except the tower manager himself.
It would be a good idea to call him and give him the time and let him
listen to the tapes and tell you what he thinks. If this is a recurring
problem ask for a meeting with the manager. If he won't give you one go
over his head to the nearest FAA tower and ask the same thing.


I
also told him that the other CFI 'probably' should have told the
controller what he was doing as a matter of 'courtesy',

More for safety than courtesy.


and that if he
wasn't absolutely sure which Cherokee to follow, he should have told
the controller that he'd remain outside of his airspace until the tower
told him the traffic was clear, and then turn in.

Always ask if you're not sure.




Plus, it isnt a good
idea to alienate the ATC guys in your own area....they can make life
'interesting' sometimes.

Yep, we do that.

91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?

Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
providing service, and the regulation applies.

It's a given that you have to establish 2-way communication (or make
prior arrangements) before you can enter Class D airspace, and it
follows that if you're not going in to the airspace, you don't need to
contact the controller.

.... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?
I can't recall any regulation that indicates otherwise.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:
91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. (b) Except in
an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Presumably, the approaching aircraft was in Class E airspace, which is
defined as controlled airspace. Doesn't that obligate the pilot to
follow ATC instructions given to him?

No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
class G.



Even if it were Class G airpspace, it's a de facto "area in which air
traffic control is exercised," by the fact that the tower controller is
providing service, and the regulation applies.

Nope.



... but once a pilot contacts a controller, isnt' he obligated to
comply whether he's in that controller's jurisdiction or not?

No and the class D controller shouldn't be trying to control you outside
his airspace.

Newps wrote:

No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
class G.

Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Newps wrote:


No, the class D tower has no more authority in class E as he does in
class G.


Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?


Who says he DOES? Towers do not have authority outside the confines of
their airspace. Even Approach controls and centers do not have authority
outside their designated airspace.

Dave

Dave S wrote:
Who says he has no authority in class E or G airspace?

Who says he DOES?

91.123(b) does. If he's ATC, and he issues an instruction, this
regulation obliges you to comply. There's no indication here (or
anywhere that I'm aware of) that you have to be in "his airspace" in
order for his instruction to be authoritative.