Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

It all depends on what you mean by statistics, and safer.

Harry Enfield (a UK comedian): "Flying is safe, you don't want to worry
about flying; it's crashing that's dangerous."

Winch launching and aerotowing are safe, it's the consequence of
mismanaging an abnormality that's dangerous.

Winch launches yield few accidents in themselves (e.g. occasional ground
loops); a competent pilot should have been trained in, and able to cope
with, a variety of abnormal situations such as cable breaks, too slow,
gradual power failure, etc. All of these are manageable with competent
handling. If badly handled, however, any can lead to a bad, even fatal,
accident. E.g. turning too low and slow after a cable break, leading to
a classic spin. But is that counted as a winch accident, or a failure to
monitor speed while turning close to the ground, i.e. a flight or
pre-landing accident? You may find that statistics are not compiled in
comparable ways over time, or between one club (or organisation, or
country) and another.

Aerotowing is more likely to kill the tug pilot than the glider pilot if
it goes wrong, i.e. the "tug upset" accident which seemed to start in
the 1970's. In terms of accidents per 100,000 launches, however, these
are rare. Oversimplifying to some extent, the only really dangerous
part of an aerotow where the competent glider pilot has little chance of
avoiding a bad accident is a rope break or power failure over bad
terrain, which is only applicable to a small proportion of sites (in my
experience).

Either method can lead very rarely to harm to second or third parties. I
know of one fatality to a ground handler associated with cable launch
operations (UK, 1970's). I know of other injuries from falling cables,
including one dead cow. There has probably been at least one instance
of somebody walking into a tug propellor, somewhere in the world. I
recall one tug accident where a child was a passenger in the tug and was
killed when it spun in (there is an argument for never carrying extra
people in the tug unless required for operational or training reasons -
it adds to the risk by reducing climb performance and increasing the
period of greatest hazard, as well as adding to the number of people at
risk in the operation - but many clubs seem to regard that as
acceptable).

There are some underlying causes of accidents that are more likely to be
found in the winch launch phase that in an aerotow - but could anyway
happen in the subsequent flight. A loose seat back leading to unintended
pitch up, and structural failure, are two I have heard of - winch
launches usually involve greater stresses and more extreme attitudes
than aerotows, unless the latter involve rotor or other adverse
conditions. But the subsequent flight could also have included
turbulence or other stress-inducing circumstances with equally tragic
results, if the problem had survived the launch phase - so should those
be counted as launch accidents?

Beware of the raw statistics.

Chris N.

Beware of the raw statistics.

How about this one:

100% of 2003 US glider fatalities occur after aerotow.

Sounds like a good tag line for a winch manufacturer advertisement

-bob

In article , mowry86
@hotmail.com says...
Beware of the raw statistics.

How about this one:

100% of 2003 US glider fatalities occur after aerotow.

Sounds like a good tag line for a winch manufacturer advertisement

Unfortunately, not true: some have occurred after self-launch, and I
know there have been some ground launch fatalities (how recently, I
can't remember)
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
.. .
In article , mowry86
@hotmail.com says...
Beware of the raw statistics.

How about this one:

100% of 2003 US glider fatalities occur after aerotow.

Sounds like a good tag line for a winch manufacturer advertisement

Unfortunately, not true: some have occurred after self-launch, and I
know there have been some ground launch fatalities (how recently, I
can't remember)
--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)

The following occured in the launch phase

Two fatals I'm aware of. A homebuilt failed structurally in a winch launch
in Colorado some years ago and apparently another homebuilt crashed in North
Carolina in the past couple of weeks on auto tow. Not clear whether the NC
accident pilot was even trained in ground launch. Perhaps someone in that
neck of the woods can offer more information.

A Russia was damaged in Wyoming a few years back on auto tow at a private
ranch strip, however, the grapevine reported the pilot had no specific
ground launch training and cart-wheeled the glider. IIRC, it was properly
repaired and sold.

A sometimes RAS poster was seriously injured in a winch launch accident
involving a Phoebus C in Georgia a few years ago. (stalled all-flying tail
to excessive pitch-up to wing stall, wing-drop, and rolled inverted to
impact)

Any others? Certainly there have been a few at Torrey Pines over the
decades, though environmental factors have been a big player there.

Frank Whiteley

Any others? Certainly there have been a few at Torrey Pines over the
decades, though environmental factors have been a big player there.

Frank Whiteley

Its been a long time now, but a group was auto-towing a Cherokee at Air
Sailing, NV. The initial flights were made with a pulley attached to a stake in
the ground and car driver heading straight for the glider. After several
flights they decided to put the pilley on the car and NOBODY knew that would
DOUBLE the glider speed. The driver "Stood on it " hard and finally obtained
his briefed 50 mph. The glider was now doing 100 and pilot was unable to
release due to excessive tow line pressure. The wings came off and pilot was
killed.

About 20 years back, a group was auto-towing a Monarch at Kingdon, Ca. That
went so well, they decided to hook it up to a tow plane. The ship did several
PIO's as the pilot tried in vain, to release. He survived, but doesen't
remember anything after the 3rd grade.

My pilot licence still reads, "Aero-Tow- Only"
JJ Sinclair

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...

Any others? Certainly there have been a few at Torrey Pines over the
decades, though environmental factors have been a big player there.

Frank Whiteley

Its been a long time now, but a group was auto-towing a Cherokee at Air
Sailing, NV. The initial flights were made with a pulley attached to a
stake in
the ground and car driver heading straight for the glider. After several
flights they decided to put the pilley on the car and NOBODY knew that
would
DOUBLE the glider speed. The driver "Stood on it " hard and finally
obtained
his briefed 50 mph. The glider was now doing 100 and pilot was unable to
release due to excessive tow line pressure. The wings came off and pilot
was
killed.

About 20 years back, a group was auto-towing a Monarch at Kingdon, Ca.
That
went so well, they decided to hook it up to a tow plane. The ship did
several
PIO's as the pilot tried in vain, to release. He survived, but doesen't
remember anything after the 3rd grade.

My pilot licence still reads, "Aero-Tow- Only"
JJ Sinclair

JJ, you've had some bad experiences and I'm sorry for that. But you have to
realize that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of winch
launches all around the world that go off without a hitch simply because the
people involved know what they are doing.

If we take the trouble to learn from them and not try to re-invent the
wheel, ground launch becomes very safe and enjoyable. (The first thing to
learn is not to use a Schweitzer-type tow release for anything at all,
period.)

Bill Daniels

JJ, you've had some bad experiences and I'm sorry for that. But you have to
realize that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of winch
launches all around the world that go off without a hitch simply because the
people involved know what they are doing.

The subject under discussion is a club that is thinking about trying a new
launch system, winch launching and now pay-out winch. My point in posting on
this subject is to show what can happen when unskilled club members try a new
system.
JJ Sinclair

Earlier, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Its been a long time now, but a group was
auto-towing a Cherokee at Air Sailing, NV...

I'm not sure, but I believe that was actually a Don Mitchell design
called the Nimbus III-B (no relation to the later Schempp-Hirth
product of similar name). That was in 1973:

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=85473&key=0

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

wrote:

How about this one:
100% of 2003 US glider fatalities occur
after aerotow.

Occur *after* aerotow? or *as a direct result of* aerotow?