One Design viability?

After sifting through the thread and some email discussions
with others, I thought I might direct this thread back
to where
it started from. With the number of racing classes
available, and
particularly the sports class-maybe one design is the
problem
as much as the PW5. I get a lot of LS4 promoters,
but a new
LS-4 built in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer,
software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used
ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low $30k range
these days.

It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.

Stewart Kissel wrote:
I get a lot of LS4 promoters, but a new LS-4 built
in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer, software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low
$30k range these days.

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range, I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around. It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Christian 8-)


It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.

U¿ytkownik Christian Husvik w wiadomooci do grup
dyskusyjnych ...
Stewart Kissel wrote:

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range, I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around. It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Wouldn't any of Standard Jantars do better? There are similar amounts of
both gliders (ca. 1000 both), but Jantars are considerably more
affordable, stronger
built, and also over 40:1. This could save a lot of money, and their
production can be resumed in any time, as the molds and all the parts are
already at Bielsko, as well as all the people who used to produce these
gliders.

JK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janusz Kesik"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:33 AM
Subject: One Design viability?

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range, I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around. It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Wouldn't any of Standard Jantars do better? There are similar amounts of
both gliders (ca. 1000 both), but Jantars are considerably more
affordable, stronger
built, and also over 40:1. This could save a lot of money, and their
production can be resumed in any time, as the molds and all the parts are
already at Bielsko, as well as all the people who used to produce these
gliders.

JK

Janusz,

Thanks for today's chuckle (whether intentional or unintentional!). Humor
too rarely enters these sort of 'religious discussions'.

For the record, I have no horse in this race, preferring to enjoy soaring
for its (and my own) naturally inherent reasons; I see no reason to feel
strongly about one-design racing, since the person I compete against is
myself.

That noted, I've enjoyed the way you've stuck to your (thoughtful and
well-reasoned) guns in this particular discussion. Having been flying
'non-German glass' - worse, *American* glass (gasp) - for 20+ years, I still
get a chuckle from the attitude (not uncommon in the U.S.), "If it's not
German glass, it's [crap, unsafe, beneath discussion, etc.]." I imagine
owners of some other high-time [American, Finnish, French, Polish, Czech,
Latvian, etc.] gliders might also harbor their own less adamant views...

Thanks again!
Bob - pot-stirring - Whelan


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Jeez,

This things comes full circle about once every 2 weeks it seems...

The only one-design class I know of is the "World Class" (the PW-5), there
are no others.

The LS-4 and the Jantars are "Standard Class" gliders, which were
competitive in this class during the 70s.
Today, you can fly all of them in the sports class (since this class uses
handicap), where you can in fact mix both old and new together.

The PW-5 was designed to be the Olympic class glider, and therefore be
easily manufactured by anybody (in the same way the Olympic sail boats such
as the Star, Laser, 49er, etec which are manufacture in many countries at
various costs).
For those who want to compete in the olympic games, this is the way.
For those with big budgets and ocean crossing aspirations, there are many
other "Professional" classes, all the way up to the Maxis, Volvo Ocean
Racers, or the Americas Cup (for those who like spending millions in local
"drag racing").

Likewise in Soaring, PW-5 are for the World Air Games.

If you like more performance, buy one of the other classes and have fun.
Stop bitching about it.




"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
After sifting through the thread and some email discussions
with others, I thought I might direct this thread back
to where
it started from. With the number of racing classes
available, and
particularly the sports class-maybe one design is the
problem
as much as the PW5. I get a lot of LS4 promoters,
but a new
LS-4 built in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer,
software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used
ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low $30k range
these days.

It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.

So if there are 1000+ LS4's and 1000+ Jantars, why
not figure
out the handicap and let them race together? What
a minute,
that already exists as sports class. And since one
design means
tweaking, refinishing, reprofiling, etc, etc,....what
is the likelihood of a completely level playing field
anyway? Well the
winter solstice is just around the corner, so another
thread can
deal with the PW5.





At 18:00 06 December 2003, Bob Whelan wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: 'Janusz Kesik'
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:33 AM
Subject: One Design viability?

Or a used LS-4, which would be in the high $20k range,
I guess. The
point a lot seem to miss, is that the LS-4 one design
class already
exists, there are more than 1000 of them around.
It's just that noone
has held any contests for them yet ;-)

Wouldn't any of Standard Jantars do better? There
are similar amounts of
both gliders (ca. 1000 both), but Jantars are considerably
more
affordable, stronger
built, and also over 40:1. This could save a lot of
money, and their
production can be resumed in any time, as the molds
and all the parts are
already at Bielsko, as well as all the people who
used to produce these
gliders.

JK

Janusz,

Thanks for today's chuckle (whether intentional or
unintentional!). Humor
too rarely enters these sort of 'religious discussions'.

For the record, I have no horse in this race, preferring
to enjoy soaring
for its (and my own) naturally inherent reasons; I
see no reason to feel
strongly about one-design racing, since the person
I compete against is
myself.

That noted, I've enjoyed the way you've stuck to your
(thoughtful and
well-reasoned) guns in this particular discussion.
Having been flying
'non-German glass' - worse, *American* glass (gasp)
- for 20+ years, I still
get a chuckle from the attitude (not uncommon in the
U.S.), 'If it's not
German glass, it's [crap, unsafe, beneath discussion,
etc.].' I imagine
owners of some other high-time [American, Finnish,
French, Polish, Czech,
Latvian, etc.] gliders might also harbor their own
less adamant views...

Thanks again!
Bob - pot-stirring - Whelan


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date:
11/10/2003

So if there are 1000+ LS4's and 1000+ Jantars, why
not figure
out the handicap and let them race together? What
a minute,
that already exists as sports class. And since one
design means
tweaking, refinishing, reprofiling, etc, etc,....what
is the likelihood of a completely level playing field
anyway? Well the
winter solstice is just around the corner, so another
thread can
deal with the PW5.



From doing a bit more research, it seems the IGC
World Class goal was really just lowest cost. It
wasn't really aimed at seasoned racing pilots.

So I suppose it succeeded in its goal. Hmmm...
maybe the Russia will be the next World Class glider...
Boy wouldn't it be nice if it was at least
an AC-4c (retractable) though? :-P

At 01:36 10 December 2003, Arnold Pieper wrote:
Jeez,

This things comes full circle about once every 2 weeks
it seems...

The only one-design class I know of is the 'World Class'
(the PW-5), there
are no others.

Gee, where I come from the most active one design is
1-26ers.

The LS-4 and the Jantars are 'Standard Class' gliders,
which were
competitive in this class during the 70s.
Today, you can fly all of them in the sports class
(since this class uses
handicap), where you can in fact mix both old and new
together.

The PW-5 was designed to be the Olympic class glider,
and therefore be
easily manufactured by anybody (in the same way the
Olympic sail boats such
as the Star, Laser, 49er, etec which are manufacture
in many countries at
various costs).
For those who want to compete in the olympic games,
this is the way.

I was not aware that soaring was in the Olympics.

For those with big budgets and ocean crossing aspirations,
there are many
other 'Professional' classes, all the way up to the
Maxis, Volvo Ocean
Racers, or the Americas Cup (for those who like spending
millions in local
'drag racing').

Likewise in Soaring, PW-5 are for the World Air Games.

So traveling to the World games is considered low budget?

If you like more performance, buy one of the other
classes and have fun.
Stop bitching about it.






'Stewart Kissel' wrote in
message ...
After sifting through the thread and some email discussions
with others, I thought I might direct this thread
back
to where
it started from. With the number of racing classes
available, and
particularly the sports class-maybe one design is
the
problem
as much as the PW5. I get a lot of LS4 promoters,
but a new
LS-4 built in Eastern Europe(with instruments, trailer,
software,
parachute) is still going to cost considerably more
then the used
ASW-20, Ventus, LS6 that are in the low $30k range
these days.

It would be difficult for me to trade in my Ventus
plus at least $20k in order to play the one design
game. Now I am not a
racer type, but I suspect the one design concept was
geared to
entry level racers, which I qualify as. So perhaps
one design is
an idea which was not to be in our current environment.

Gee, where I come from the most active one design is
1-26ers.
Only available in the US, design is proprietary.

(..........)
I was not aware that soaring was in the Olympics.

It was going to be, but it was aborted in the early 90s.
Hence the World Air Games.

(................)
So traveling to the World games is considered low budget?

The same way as traveling to compete in the Olympics with Lasers, Stars,
49rs etc.