90 Degree turn while slipping

At 08:24 05 February 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:
At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
I can't find anything in my books about how to make
a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,

Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
of salt when you read posts about making you turns
with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?
This is where spins develop from, because in the event
of you stalling, the likelyhood of you surviving when
low, as you would be on your base turn, or final turn
are very slim. Get into the habit of flying turns in
a coordinated manner right from the start, at all times.

Couldn't agree more!
What must be remembered about these sort of discussions
is there is a significant difference between 'what
can be done' and 'what should be done'
Having to use slipping to this extent to get rid of
excess height can only be the result of a very poorly
planned circuit (very tight ridge sites excepted).
Slipping can be useful to get in to a small field off
site but even then should only be required on finals.
It is far better to plan, execute, monitor and adjust
your circuit all the way round than have to take this
sort of corrective measure. Once you are in this situation
then you have severly limited your options which is
never a good idea in a glider.

Dave H

ISoar wrote in message . ..
I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
will be in a 2-33.

Thanks

Just roll toward the direction you want to turn. The steeper the bank
angle, the greater the turn rate. The nose will be high and outside
the turn compared with a non slipping turn.

Please do it with an instructor at altitude before you try it in the
pattern.


Andy

At 15:18 05 February 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
If you are already in a full slip on base, you can
turn by simply increasing the bank angle while continuing
to
hold full opposite rudder.

and there you were a little while ago saying that you
can slip turn with wings level with the rudder alone
just like in a boat!

Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Definitely a troll.

Like in straight flight, you can turn in a slip with aileron and rudder.
But in most planes you will need full or nearly full rudder to keep
the plane slipping, so only the aileron is left to control a turn.
Use it as you would use it in straight flight.
You only can do rather wide turns.
I prefer to to slip with the nose pointing to the outside of the turn
(i.e. left for a right turn).

There is one PROBLEM:
The indicated airspeed is close to zero, so you can only control the
airspeed by observing the angle between your plane and the horizon.
You will need some training to do this for any specific type of plane,
especially in mountain areas, where the horizon image changes during turn.
So it is necessary to try first at high altitude and it with an instuctor.
Be shure that you are trained to do straight slips, and to recover from a
stall.
For a real landing, you should use it only if a normal landing with flaps is
not possible.

By the way it is big fun!
Walter

ISoar wrote in message . ..
I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
will be in a 2-33.

Thanks

As a qualifier: I am not an aeronautical expert or a CFI-G but just
someone who has a few hundred hours and less than 12 months on my
private glider ticket.

It is amazing to me that a student with anything more than ten or so
flights hasn't been exposed to, and trained how to perform slips and
slipping turns. This is not your deficiency but that of your CFI-G.
You do not indicate your experience level, but the fact you are flying
a 2-33 gives an indication you are fairly new and or inexperienced.

Ask your CFI, if he/she doesn't know, get a new one! My pre-solo
CFI's, all four of them at three different club/fbo's, each told me I
would have to demonstrate this skill before I would be approved to
solo.

Where I fly and where I took my fight test the designee REQUIRED a
demonstration of fully controlled slipping turns in the pattern.
Certainly good pattern control should normally prevent you from being
so high on a turn to final that you would require a full slip with
full spoilers (It can be fun though :^) ). But when flying out in the
western deserts (US and other continents I would imagine) you can and
will experience extrememe lift in the pattern (or you could just blow
it!)which especially in a 2-33 can require slips and spoilers to
counter.

What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?

Also, what about outlandings? This may not be a consideration for a
pre-solo student but isn't it something he/she should be building
their skills for now?
Short field, moderate to high wind, high obstruction on the downwind
end of the field. I have been taught that having skill at a full
spoiler slip may save your aircraft (and your life) in this situation.

O.K. guys & gals tell me where I am wrong here. I have also been
taught that when we stop learning whe should prepare to die, if we
already haven't.

P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

ISoar

What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern

Hmmm...yet another instrument with no required backup. Yaw string
outside, maybe a ball inside?

P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

Yet another instrument with no backup. (most) Airplanes have a
stall horn as the ASI backup. I'm still puzzled why gliders
don't have stall warning devices...

"JohnD" wrote in message
om...
ISoar wrote in message
. ..
...
What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?
...
P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw string
is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground, and
give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots in
the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently calibrated
to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically coordinate
the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously remaining
far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

Vaughn

Vaughn wrote:

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

I wonder if one can get an experimental version at
Orchard Supply for $2.35...

:P

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:40252ec1@darkstar...
Vaughn wrote:

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings&
Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

I wonder if one can get an experimental version at
Orchard Supply for $2.35...

I have seen bubble levels used, they work in the opposite direction
from a slip/skid (same as the yaw string), are excessively sensitive, but
the one I flew with seemed to agree with the yaw string.

Vaughn



:P