Any news from IGC?

Not on my Colibri, you can't. It stops the flight, starts another. Hard to
prove a takeoff when there isn't any.

In article , Don Johnstone
wrote:
At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight. Those without a logger which has this
facility cannot do this, they are at a disadvantage.
Surely we should have a level palying field. Awarding
badges on the distance flown where an approved logger
is used, whether declared or not, would solve this
problem. Those who cannot afford expensive kit are
being discriminated against.
The award of badges should be made on performance,
not the ability of the pilot to purchase an expensive
logger.

On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight.

As others have pointed out, this is plain wrong.


--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

Frank Whiteley

X-no-archive: yes
In article , F.L. Whiteley
writes

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
.. .
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

Frank Whiteley




If the task set is a qualifying badge task, it is taken as read that by
taking part in the competition that day a declaration has been made and
no separate declaration is required.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
.. .
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked
if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The
explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the
time.

Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such
limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task
shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight.

However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly
witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have
to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid,
find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then
sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding
logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general
turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition
control.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

X-no-archive: yes
In article , Martin Gregorie
writes
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:12:51 -0700, "F.L. Whiteley"
wrote:


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
. ..
On 5 Mar 2004 11:12:19 GMT, Don Johnstone
wrote:

At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Quite right too.

Free flights should not count for badges because an important part of
the badge requirement is to pre-plan a flight that can be done in the
prevailing weather conditions. That's why (in the UK at least)
suitable competition tasks cannot be used to claim badge flights: you
haven't planned the task, only flown it.

Way this always a rule? I know of one UK competition where 25 Diamond
distance flights were completed. Perhaps only a goal leg is not
claimable, but may distance, altitude, and duration are?

In my previous post I repeated what I was told when last year I asked
if a 300 km Regionals task could be claimed as Gold distance. The
explanation I repeated as to why it couldn't was given to me at the
time.

Now I've just skim read the FAI OO guide and it mentions no such
limitation, so on the face of it I can't see why a competition task
shouldn't be claimed as a badge flight.

However, I'd also say that the logistics of making a properly
witnessed claim during the task could be quite a problem. You'd have
to get your declaration made between briefing and launching the grid,

I don't see that. I have always taken the view that by virtue of taking
part in the competition that day, you have declared the task as set by
the organisers. That's common sense, isn't it?

find an OO to supervise removing the logger after you land and then
sort out any conflicts between the OO and the task scorer regarding
logger custody and downloading - and do all this in the general
turmoil of a competition day without annoying the folks in competition
control.

Having an OO remove the Flight Recorder from the Aircraft is only
necessary IF the approval document for that Flight Recorder requires it.

Certainly, under Lasham's Local rules and maybe other clubs, Competition
Officials are Officials Observers for the Duration of the Contest.

It is however important to remember that the 'observation' zones for
Competitions and Badges are slightly different, and if you intend to
claim a badge you need to go a bit further into the zone.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

At 11:48 05 March 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Don Johnstone
writes
At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight. Those without a logger which has this
facility cannot do this, they are at a disadvantage.
Surely we should have a level palying field. Awarding
badges on the distance flown where an approved logger
is used, whether declared or not, would solve this
problem. Those who cannot afford expensive kit are
being discriminated against.
The award of badges should be made on performance,
not the ability of the pilot to purchase an expensive
logger.

Check your facts Don, declarations made after take-off
are invalid.

Sporting Code section 3:

4.2.2 Declaration validity
a. The last declaration made before takeoff is the
only one valid for
the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is
allowed.

Tim Newport-Peace

'Indecision is the Key to Flexibility.'

I think that there is quite a difference between flying a declared task and
a free distance one. Declarations imply some degree of weather interpreting
, task area selection and planning. Free distance - get under a stonking
street and keep going! The difference is subtle but its there!

Not sure if this is pertinent but free distance tasks are not acceptable for
badge flights

Ian



"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
I stand corrected. My original query still stands.
Where cameras and smoky barographs were used I can
see the sense of a 'declaration'. With GPS do we really
need it, surely the criteria should be the distance
flown and this can now be positively verified with
a data logger. Why complicate something so simple?
A 300k or 500k downwind dash ie free distance is ok
so why not a triangle

At 11:48 05 March 2004, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
X-no-archive: yes
In article , Don Johnstone
writes
At 17:06 04 March 2004, Ian Strachan wrote:

snip-
A proposal that badge distances should be allowed for
free flights as
well as pre-declared, was defeated.

Which is hard to understand. Anyone with a programmable
logger can get airbourne and then declare a flight
by entering the details in the logger, and claim a
badge flight. Those without a logger which has this
facility cannot do this, they are at a disadvantage.
Surely we should have a level palying field. Awarding
badges on the distance flown where an approved logger
is used, whether declared or not, would solve this
problem. Those who cannot afford expensive kit are
being discriminated against.
The award of badges should be made on performance,
not the ability of the pilot to purchase an expensive
logger.

Check your facts Don, declarations made after take-off
are invalid.

Sporting Code section 3:

4.2.2 Declaration validity
a. The last declaration made before takeoff is the
only one valid for
the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is
allowed.

Tim Newport-Peace

'Indecision is the Key to Flexibility.'

tango4 wrote:
Not sure if this is pertinent but free distance tasks are not acceptable for
badge flights

Yes they are ! Either free distance in straight line or free distance
with up to 3 (predeclared) turn points

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
tango4 wrote:
Not sure if this is pertinent but free distance tasks are not acceptable for
badge flights

Yes they are ! Either free distance in straight line or free distance
with up to 3 (predeclared) turn points

I have to point out a confusion that I had as well about
definitions.

A "free 3TP" task means the 3 turnpoints are declared
before the flight, but the order of the turnpoints, and
whether 1,2,or all 3 turnpoints are claimed
is declared after the flight. I haven't seen this clearly explained
anywhere but on some of the declaration forms themselves.

This is different from what I would conceptually
consider "free," which is when three turnpoins would
be chosen after the flight from the three points on the gps trace
which are furthest apart.

Anyone with more comment on this please correct me if
this is mistaken...I've only flown one free 3TP record,
and the "free 3TP" task and form were what I used.


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA