Is everybody afraid of World Class?

And it's sort of a silly question. At the point most soaring
pilots are ready to buy a glider, they're going to buy
a retract, not a fixed gear anyway, I would guess...

That's my whole damn point !!! When it is time for a new pilot
to buy a glider he want's the best he can get for his money.
Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

As is common here, we are now in violent agreement!
I think this is a good argument that the next WC glider
should be allowed to compete as a retract. The AC-4c
is a fine example of a low price, lightweight, short wing,
low insurance rate glider. Maybe just offer a tilt up
canopy, eh?
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

That's my whole damn point !!! When it is time for a new pilot
to buy a glider he want's the best he can get for his money.
If the the WC was an LS-4 or Discus CS, then I at least would have
had no hesitation in buying one.

No hasitation in buying one??? Take wild guess how much would you have
to spend on newly manufactured Ls-4 or Discus Cs???? There goes your
major DAMN hesitation!!!! Thats why you're flying 20 year old G102 NOT
even used Ls-4 or Discus Cs. Sorry but no glider is worth 80 - 100
thousand, it is truly sad to see one country gaining monopoly on
glider manufacturing and dictating the prices. I'm no fan of Pewee but
making a glider thats going to cost 80 grand a new WC is not going to
make gliding more popular either!

In article ,
(Todd Smith) wrote:

As a newly licensed glider shopper, I wanted better performance than
the PW-5 would have given me. I bought a used Grob-102 and have had
lots of fun.

A 102? That's a good few steps below a Libelle or Cirrus. In fact, I
think you'd have trouble beating a PW5 most days (in north island NZ
conditions at least). Hell, I remember when I was flying a K6 and a guy
in his G102 asked if I minded if he followed me.

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Bruce Hoult wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Todd Smith) wrote:

As a newly licensed glider shopper, I wanted better performance than
the PW-5 would have given me. I bought a used Grob-102 and have had
lots of fun.

A 102? That's a good few steps below a Libelle or Cirrus. In fact, I
think you'd have trouble beating a PW5 most days (in north island NZ
conditions at least). Hell, I remember when I was flying a K6 and a guy
in his G102 asked if I minded if he followed me.

I've only flown with a Libelle for 1 contest and don't really remember
how we compared. A std cirrus seems about equal to the G102 when I've
flown with them. No problem keeping up with a K6 or PW5.

My choice was really just a lucky combination of price, nearby location,
good condition and immediate availability. Any decent glider that had
no damage or other issues would have been fine with me.

Todd Smith
G102 "3S"

stephanevdv wrote in message .. .
It strikes me as odd that the most vocal argument against the PW-5 seems
to be the "unconventional" aesthetics. Compared to some of the
Schweizer designs or old European mixed construction types, I can't see
the problem. If you compare it with our usual sleek plastic machines, I
agree the high tail boom and conventional tail seem strange, but there
is a logical explanation: a T-tail needs to have a much stronger tail
boom to absorb the torsion loads. To have a conventional tail with
sufficient ground clearance for field landings in crops, it has to be
high-mounted. This design feature thus helps to keep the price down.
Handsome is as handsome does, or?

Hmmm let me think....
Our club bounced forward and bought one of the first 50 or so PW5
because we thought the concept of the World Class was a good idea and
we should support it and enable our pilots to compete in such
competitions.
Very soon even the beginners realised that the PW5 was the poorest
winch launcher by far (average 1200feet instead of the 1500 with Ka8,
Ka6 or ASK23).
Around the same time the club in Innsbruck totalled two of theirs on
whinch launch and so for some strange reason nobody was really
interested in flying the thing any longer.
In it's second season someone landed in wheat only about 35" tall and
gone was the tail - that doesn't happen with a T-tail. The repair cost
almost as much as the new glider mainly because the spare parts are
where they make the money. The horiz. stabiliser alone cost about
$4500!
During the following season the sweet little thing flew another 50
hours, there where no comps held anywhere and so we sold it again.
And it happily lives in Belgium now. Hope it stays there.

Marcel

Then why respond to posts about soaring if you have
no interest in flying? Why not respond to posts about
something that makes sense to you because apparantly
soaring makes absolutly no sense to you.......

At 17:18 23 August 2004, wrote:
On 23 Aug 2004 06:36:44 -0700, (Todd
Smith) wrote:


1) good one-design competition ?
NO, it's too damn slow ! and ugly !

Totally ignoring that it is flying ONLY against others
of the same
type. It's no uglier than any other plastic ship.
They all suck.


My question to the PW-5 supporters.

Would YOU buy one ? As the glider YOU flew every good
soaring day ?
If you want the class to grow, sell whatever you have
and buy a PW-5.

If you can give any rational reason that you want them
to disappear,
and the class to die, other than 'it's not your thing',
it might shed
a little light on the subject. From the many, many
threads that have
blasted anything less than 40:1, it's quite obvious
why it's not being
a success. In other words, if you're not interested,
you are only
joining the small number of high volume bigmouths that
wish only to
impress their 'standards' on others and have pretty
much killed the
class in the process.

When I started, my interest was in the 1-26, and in
particular, MY
1-26, not a half a dozen others, and it was my intention
to stick with
the one type. Net result, I haven't been in a cockpit
for nearly
three years now, and have no intention of subjecting
myself to the
verbal barrage of BS again. It's a blooming hobby,
I don't have to do
it, much less seek the approval of someone else of
how I choose to do
it. Now, if it were as easy to shut mouths as it is
to stay away and
NOT do it. Guidance and help cease to be guidance
and help when they
become blockheaded opinions, as are all of the PW threads
here. It's
far easier and far cheaper for me to stay away and
spend the money on
something that makes sense.

On 23 Aug 2004 17:57:00 GMT, Brian Iten
wrote:

Then why respond to posts about soaring if you have
no interest in flying?

Make that not enough interest in soaring to spend myself into the hole
where I live only to fly, and you might be slightly more correct..
Flying is only one of many interesting things that the world has to
offer, and not very high on the "bang for the buck." Very time
consuming, very very expensive, and in most places, only seasonal.

Why not respond to posts about
something that makes sense to you because apparantly
soaring makes absolutly no sense to you.......

IF flying gliders lived up to the promise, more or less that of one
person going up and doing his own thing then coming down and having a
good bull session with friends, it would be ok, but it does not. The
person that knows his limits, both in money to spend and risk he is
willing to take will put up with an unwarranted barrage of ****mouth
from a few that seem to think God only gave brains to them.
Unfortunately, what God gave them was a big mouth and an empty head.
What difference does it make to you if someone is flying only local in
a 1-26, 2-33 or PW? What difference does it make to you that maybe
he's happy with the situation as it is, content with what he has.
What does it take away from you if he's not interested in competition
or badges, even could care less about a diamond, microscopic as they
are? Just exactly what does it take away from you if someone follows
his own interests and ignores yours? How does it hurt you if he is
flying in a PW and liking it? What is it taking away from you if he
does? The activity itself, flying gliders, might make sense, it's the
pilots that don't.

IF flying gliders lived up to the promise, more or less that of one
person going up and doing his own thing then coming down and having a
good bull session with friends, it would be ok, but it does not. The
person that knows his limits, both in money to spend and risk he is
willing to take will put up with an unwarranted barrage of ****mouth
from a few that seem to think God only gave brains to them.
Unfortunately, what God gave them was a big mouth and an empty head.
What difference does it make to you if someone is flying only local in
a 1-26, 2-33 or PW? What difference does it make to you that maybe
he's happy with the situation as it is, content with what he has.
What does it take away from you if he's not interested in competition
or badges, even could care less about a diamond, microscopic as they
are? Just exactly what does it take away from you if someone follows
his own interests and ignores yours? How does it hurt you if he is
flying in a PW and liking it? What is it taking away from you if he
does? The activity itself, flying gliders, might make sense, it's the
pilots that don't.

This is so far the most intelligent statement out of this whole "meat
throwing" so called discussion...I know that its tempting for some,
but don't add anything else.

The UK has usually 0-3 absolutely superb days each year (like this year,
1000km in an ASW22, lots of 750's and more, and possible 750 in PW5 or
500+ in a Ka6E, 300km in a K8 - all those have been done at times).
Rarely more than 3 such days and sometimes none in a year.

More frequent days happen when usually 500km in good glass is possible
or 300+ in lower perfomance glass and Ka6E is possible - I doubt if many
years happen with no such days, there are usually maybe 5-10 or more
most years. It is that kind of weather I imagine Robin was talking
about. Weekend only pilots many take several years of trying, however,
before they, the glider availability, and the weather all work out OK at
the same time.

I believe that the emergence of 1:40+ gliders has transformed UK soaring
from a struggle to do long tasks except on the few really good days to a
pattern of lots of days of 300km+ capability. A lot of pilots (I was
one such until very recently) plug on with wood or low performance
glass, either out of financial necessity or stubbornness/enjoying the
challenge. Others find the wherewithal to go to better glass and are
more often able to do long flights. There are also the factors of
spreadout - sometimes the wooden glider simply cannot jump the gaps
between areas with lift; and penetration, when wood/PW5's etc. cannot
complete closed circuit tasks because the into-wind leg is impossible.
(I speak from experience, e.g. 4 outlandings downwind in 5 days flying
in Competition Enterprise this year, because of strong winds all week.
The 6th and last flyable day I did not compete in my Ka6E because of the
wind strength, though a few glass gliders did.)

Chris N.

In message , Chris Nicholas
writes
The UK has usually 0-3 absolutely superb days each year (like this year,
1000km in an ASW22, lots of 750's and more, and possible 750 in PW5 or
500+ in a Ka6E, 300km in a K8 - all those have been done at times).
Rarely more than 3 such days and sometimes none in a year.

More frequent days happen when usually 500km in good glass is possible
or 300+ in lower perfomance glass and Ka6E is possible - I doubt if many
years happen with no such days, there are usually maybe 5-10 or more
most years. It is that kind of weather I imagine Robin was talking
about. Weekend only pilots many take several years of trying, however,
before they, the glider availability, and the weather all work out OK at
the same time.

Yes I was. You summary is fairly typical of the conditions we see in
the UK
I believe that the emergence of 1:40+ gliders has transformed UK soaring
from a struggle to do long tasks except on the few really good days to a
pattern of lots of days of 300km+ capability. A lot of pilots (I was
one such until very recently) plug on with wood or low performance
glass, either out of financial necessity or stubbornness/enjoying the
challenge. Others find the wherewithal to go to better glass and are
more often able to do long flights. There are also the factors of
spreadout - sometimes the wooden glider simply cannot jump the gaps
between areas with lift; and penetration, when wood/PW5's etc. cannot
complete closed circuit tasks because the into-wind leg is impossible.
(I speak from experience, e.g. 4 outlandings downwind in 5 days flying
in Competition Enterprise this year, because of strong winds all week.
The 6th and last flyable day I did not compete in my Ka6E because of the
wind strength, though a few glass gliders did.)

Yes, mind you it was fun. I think I managed 3 outlandings but inly
because I didn't go far on one day actually made it back. Despite that
Enterprise was fun, the first "real" comp that I'd been in and a great
education. I'd happily do it again.

Robin
Chris N.






--
Robin Birch