FAI Sporting Code Section 3 experts wanted

Stewart Kissel wrote:

So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
point altitude is then subtracted from this?

Not quite. You don't declare the elevation of the start and finish
points, nor is the elevation of the ground underneath the points
relevant. The start altitude for a declared start is the (pressure)
altitude from the last fix recorded before you cross the start line or
exit the start sector. The finish altitude for a declared finish is the
(pressure) altitude from the first fix after you cross the finish line
or enter the finish sector. So, if you cross the start line at an
altitude of 3120 meters, you have to finish at 2120 meters or above to
avoid the penalty.

Marc

And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
finish...can you land anywhere you please?

At 05:30 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
point altitude is then subtracted from this?




At 05:00 29 August 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It
does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter
difference
between start and finish is calculated from the
post-flight
start and finishes?


You can't post-declare start or finish points for
a distance task. If
you want a start point other than the point of release,
or a finish
point other than the point of landing, you need to
declare them before
flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter
allowance is between
the start point altitude and finish point altitude,
so if neither start
nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude
between the point of
release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters
or less to avoid
the penalty.

It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records,
but the Code says

1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances
may be
declared post-flight.

Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds
like they could be
declared post-flight. This would also work for USA
State records, which
allow the free distance task.

For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):

1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS
to a FINISH
POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it
need not be declared.
The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart
and may be claimed
once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must
be declared.

What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider
pilot
effectively choose the end of the task by starting
the motor, but the
unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point
or use the
landing point.
--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Stewart Kissel wrote:

And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
finish...can you land anywhere you please?

Yes, but for a distance task you can do that in any case, even if you
declared a finish. I also believe (but I'm not 100% certain, Judy can
correct me on this), that you can declare a start point, fly the
distance task without actually claiming the declared start, and get
credit for the distance task based on an undeclared start at the point
of release.

Marc

Ah, that was going to be my next question Mark. Can
you use the release point if you have a declared Start
Point. I gotta see what Judy says on this.

Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so
you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish,
rather then use the landing for the finish and lose
that altitude for your calculation versus the start
altitude?



At 06:00 29 August 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
finish...can you land anywhere you please?

Yes, but for a distance task you can do that in any
case, even if you
declared a finish. I also believe (but I'm not 100%
certain, Judy can
correct me on this), that you can declare a start point,
fly the
distance task without actually claiming the declared
start, and get
credit for the distance task based on an undeclared
start at the point
of release.

Marc

Stewart Kissel wrote:
Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so
you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish,
rather then use the landing for the finish and lose
that altitude for your calculation versus the start
altitude?

That's what I always do...

Marc

At 07:00 29 August 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:
Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so
you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish,
rather then use the landing for the finish and lose
that altitude for your calculation versus the start
altitude?

That's what I always do...
Marc

Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
a Start Point had been declared. If this cannot occur,
I see pluses and minuses for using either scenario.

Stewart Kissel wrote:

Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
a Start Point had been declared.

No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance)

But you may use release altitude as your start altitude (for the 1000 m
difference with the altitude at finish point) and pass within the
declared start point observation zone later and higher (distance flights
only, not allowed on speed tasks)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
a Start Point had been declared.


No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance)

SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight
from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note
that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a
START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT
declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note
that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c)
after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or
electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you
are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being
a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the
same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you
have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to
use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have
you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation
incorrect?

Marc

Marc,

I can verify that this interpretation is correct.

In 1999, I used this interpretation and received my 1000km.

It was not easy to obtain with this interpretation and it took many
months of perseverance.

I believe I was the first to do this and I don't think they were happy
about my insistence on this literal interpretation of the rule.

It would be interesting to know if anyone else has successfully used
it.

I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as a start and
finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and then landed at
Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona and decided to fly
down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was in wave when I
started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release as my start
altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the 1000m calculation.

Dale Kramer
K1





Marc Ramsey wrote in message . com...
Denis wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
a Start Point had been declared.


No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance)

SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight
from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note
that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a
START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT
declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note
that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c)
after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or
electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you
are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being
a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the
same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you
have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to
use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have
you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation
incorrect?

Marc

Dale Kramer wrote:

I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as a start and
finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and then landed at
Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona and decided to fly
down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was in wave when I
started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release as my start
altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the 1000m calculation.

If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?