Looking for first glider

At 18:18 07 September 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER.


Ditto on the trailer...and automatic hookups. Remember
with hotelliers...if you rig correctly 99.9% of the
time...u crash.

Stewart,

Do you tie your own shoelaces? Or do you still wear
velcro shoes to avoid the danger of getting it wrong
01% of the time?

Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.

Trailer is though!! ;-)

At 05:24 08 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
At 18:18 07 September 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER.


Ditto on the trailer...and automatic hookups. Remember
with hotelliers...if you rig correctly 99.9% of the
time...u crash.

Mark Brown wrote:
Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.

There are most certainly a factor for me (and many others). I will no
longer buy a glider which has manual hookups (except for one of those
vintage jobs I've been lusting after, and won't be flying frequently).
I know I'm unlikely to get them right 100% of the time.

Over the past 15 years I've been acquainted with at least six or seven
careful and experienced pilots who have managed to take off with a
Hotellier fitting disconnected. Three dead, one unable to fly or walk,
one with permanent leg damage.

I know one person who had an in-flight failure of an automatic hookup,
and that was a flaperon fitting on an LS-3 (which can barely be
considered automatic). She managed to bail out.

The odds look pretty clear to me...

Marc

Mark Brown wrote:
Stewart,

Do you tie your own shoelaces? Or do you still wear
velcro shoes to avoid the danger of getting it wrong
01% of the time?

Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.

It is for me. After 5000 hours, I know what I can and can't do reliably.
If you don't make mistakes with details, or don't expect to keep the
glider for more than a couple hundred hours, then maybe manual hookups
are OK.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 10:00 08 September 2004, Mark Brown wrote:
Stewart,

Do you tie your own shoelaces?

Yep, and I trip on them if they come undone.

Or do you still wear
velcro shoes to avoid the danger of getting it wrong
01% of the time?

Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.


Don't want to start a flame war here, but I have to
disagree. Affordable ships on the used market come
with automatic hookups...and not only do they make
things safer...but with a self-rigger one does not
need assistance...which means more flying for some
of us who fly from remote airports.
Trailer is though!! ;-)

At 05:24 08 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
At 18:18 07 September 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER.


Ditto on the trailer...and automatic hookups. Remember
with hotelliers...if you rig correctly 99.9% of the
time...u crash.

In article ,
Jeff Runciman wrote:
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/want_ads.htm
lists some gliders, fun to shop there.

Beyond that, everyone here has given sound advice so far (get
some higher performance dual, LS-4 is nice, automatic hookups,
etc.). So I'll echo their comments but add some buyer/owner
tips.

Sometimes it's easier or better to get something you know.
The local pilots can tell you a lot about their ships. And they'll
come in real handy when you want parts and advice. There are quite
a few gliders in your range, and your happiness may depend
more on support of pals and parts than a few points of L/D.

So a Pegasus or Russia AC-4c or Discus/Ventus/ASW
may all suit your tastes, but if you can find
one of these locally, that's good. You can assemble/disassemble,
ask about quirks, get in it for fit and comfort, etc. Maybe
you'll really love light wings for assembly. Maybe you can't
read yiddish so the instruments are yucky. Or maybe it looks like a
ugly blunt nose thing. Or maybe the interior is tacky.

Flying something before you buy is also real helpful. Some
gliders have crappy ventilation, and I fly in 100+ degrees.
Some have lousy vis, or come with a hella backbreaking parachute...

Beyond that, I wouldn't dream of owning any vehicle until
I'd compared likely insurance rates and read the POH. Beyond that,
since you are probably in USA, the accident reports by type
are available. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
Look a bit, and if you notice a lot of a particular kind of
accident, or a high rate in general, then keep that in mind.
The insurance quote will likely reflect this. And these
accidents will be things you'll want to look for preventing.
Are the accident causing ADs complied with? Does it have
gear warning system or maybe auto hookup connections? Etc...

I see Pegasi in the 1985 range at W&W. There's a bunch of other
stuff, including flapped ASW-20s there too. ASW-19, Grob 102,
flapped PIKs, some LSs, etc. I know the Pegasi are reasonably
easy to insure, and do ok. Again, best if you can find someone
local and look at their glider first tho...

P.S. If this is my BROTHER Jeff using an alias, disregard all
of this and buy a 2-22 for $1000. Then take the rest of the money
and treat yourself and your brother to a one-month European
gliding holiday...followed by a week in Minden, California
(easy Al, easy) :P
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Jeff Runciman wrote in message ...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider.

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

Take a look at the Alisport Silent 2
It offers good performance similar to or better than a PW5
or Russia and is available new. I own the original club version
and am very pleased with it's performance. My ship climbs as well
or better than any of the 15 meter glass birds and I stay up on
weak lift days very easily.

There are more considerations than just L/D when it comes to
buying your first ship. The wings are lighter and it assembles easily,
and with the shorter wings fits in the hanger nicely.

I preferred buying new fiberglass over a 20+ year old ship.
most (all) of the used ones I looked at had crazing and cracks in the
gel coat, and paying for a refinish would have made the costs too
high.

I'm not selling them, I am just a satisfied owner. I don't fly competition
but I can fly my Silent cross country very easily knowing it will land in
a smaller field and at a slower speed than some of the higher performance
racing sailplanes.

http://www.alisport.com

Willie
Silent 39 - (EK)

Check out the Apis 13 or 15 meter sailplanes. I own a 13m and have a
partnership in a 15m.........both are well made, good performing
sailplanes. You would be quite happy with either one.

Brad





Jeff Runciman wrote in message ...
I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff