Postponed 3 students due to TSA

On 20 Oct 2004 19:55:32 GMT, Steve Hill
wrote:

I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors take
"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a friend
how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
where an infraction comes into play...

You raise an interesting question.
What are you going to do with your passenger if he's sitting in the
same cockpit as you and asks to touch the controls?

What's the difference between a pilot-to-be and a
pilot-to-be-for-this-flight-but-only-for-this-flight, seen from the
point of view of homeland security?


Have you heard about the Frankfurt case of the hijacked Dimona (in the
US called Katana Extreme) motorglider?

An insane passenger hijacked the motorglider by forcing the pilot to
leave the aircraft once they had taxied to the runway. Then he took
off (I think he had some motorglider lessons, but he definitely didn't
have a license) and flew over the city of Frankfurt, right through the
approach sector of Frankfurt Rhein Main airport. This took over two
hours and Rhein Main airport, one of the busiest in the world, was
shut down completely during this time. They got him on the radio, and
he mentioned that he was thinking about crashing the Dimona into the
city of Frankfurt (they are pretty proud of their few tiny sky
crapers). As a result, the city was partially evacuated (!). In the
end they could persuade him to land on Rhein Main.

This happened in Germany - here people usually don't panic as easily
as in other parts of the world (well... at least until 9-11).


Somehow I see it coming that the same security checks for passengers
of a 4-seat Cessna as for commercial flights are going to become
mandatatory, including a closed cockpit for only the pilot. or simply
forbid any passenger flights with people that have not been briefed by
the FBI.





Bye
Andreas

Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria..
however.. if a log book is produced for a CFI endorsement to meet the
requirements of an additional rating.. then TSA rules are in effect.

BT

"Steve Hill" wrote in message
...
I have a curious question...If this whole "carry your papers" mess is based
on flight instructors verifying a "students" papers...and a "student" is
anyone a flight instructor takes for an instructional flight...wouldn't it
be a simple solution to just have rated pilots who are not instructors
take
"friends" for short "rides"...?? If the pilot were to elect to show a
friend
how he touches the controls for a moment every now and then, I don't see
where an infraction comes into play...I don't think there's any rules
about
showing friends how we as rated pilots do things...If that "ride with a
friend" entices a person to choose to pursue an instructional flight, with
a
certified instructor, that of course becomes a much more intentional act,
and a little planning and paperwork won't bog things down much at that
point, as they are merely compliance issues...

Perhaps I'm wrong, but methinks there is always more than one way to skin
a
cat...



Steve
DG-400

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria

Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not "marketing"
flight training.

"Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the purpose of
demonstrating an aircraft’s or aircraft

simulator’s capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or to an
agent of a potential purchaser,

of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an aircraft
manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a

purchaser."



Vaughn

is that buried in the TSA definitin somewhere?
I saw definitions for "flight school". "recurrency training".. etc.. but not
"marketing"

I can't market the flight school? or flying in general?

BT

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria

Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not
"marketing"
flight training.

"Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the
purpose of
demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft

simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or
to an
agent of a potential purchaser,

of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an
aircraft
manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a

purchaser."



Vaughn

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:im_dd.36191$bk1.5328@fed1read05...
is that buried in the TSA definitin somewhere?
I saw definitions for "flight school". "recurrency training".. etc.. but not
"marketing"

The formatting was screwed up, but that was a quote straight from the rule.
Not a definition of "marketing" but rather of 'demonstration flight".


I can't market the flight school? or flying in general?

Sure you can. But you can't give a flight lesson and call it a
"demonstration flight" unless (perhaps) the purpose of the flight is to sell the
airplane.

Vaughn




BT

"Vaughn" wrote in message
...

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:0ACdd.34287$bk1.21274@fed1read05...
Demo flights for marketing are not required to meet the TSA criteria

Be careful here. They mean for "marketing" an aircraft, not
"marketing"
flight training.

"Demonstration flight for marketing purposes means a flight for the
purpose of
demonstrating an aircraft's or aircraft

simulator's capabilities or characteristics to a potential purchaser, or
to an
agent of a potential purchaser,

of the aircraft or simulator, including an acceptance flight after an
aircraft
manufacturer delivers an aircraft to a

purchaser."



Vaughn

http://travel.state.gov/passport/

Not saying I support this idea...I think I'll just
add it to my other ramp-check stuff.

http://www.usbirthcertificate.com/google/

Or plan B

Burt Compton wrote:

Looks like every American at every age should obtain and carry a US Passport.
Makes life easier to carry your "papers". But then again, I'm not trained to
detect forged Passports.

Burt, then how do you know they don't have a passport.
Ask them if they have anything they THINK might be a passport.
Then, if you can't tell it isn't one, take a photo and keep it
for five years.

Fight fire with fire, ignorance with ignorance, and
stupidity with stupidity. I'm just waiting for my daughter to
grow up enough so I can give her dual (without a passport).
I'm looking forward to meeting the TSA employee who
prosecutes that case...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article 4176dc34$1@darkstar, (Mark James Boyd)
writes:

I'm just waiting for my daughter to
grow up enough so I can give her dual (without a passport).
I'm looking forward to meeting the TSA employee who
prosecutes that case...

Remember that old saying............"Be careful what you ask for".
CP

Burt,

As I understand it, 'rides' are excluded under the
'demo flights' exclusion.
If not then we are in a bigger mess.
To give a ride you need only a commercial license (ie
not a CFIG). Therefore if *they* consider rides to
be insructional then by inference - they must be done
by an instructor.
Lets hope it doesnt go that way.
So, keep some non-instructor ride pilots available.....

Jim


At 16:55 20 October 2004, Burt Compton wrote:
Snip
The spontaneous days of the touring
airplane pilot who sees a gliderport and wants a spur-of-the-momen
t
introductory dual glider flight are gone, unless they
are carrying a US
Passport.
snip
Burt
Marfa, Texas