Cheap sailplanes

Yep, I'm 24 and I would much rather do anything associated with flying
(even looking at aerofoils or learning more about weather systems) than
going out and getting drunk etc etc etc. Thats fine now and then, but I
don't know how these other guys don't get bored of it.

Justin.

e wrote:
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:22:40 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:



We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.


Extremely well said, Bill.

Lennie (Surprised?)

Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been so
bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the two
seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My caravan had
a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we only flew for
three. When I look at my log book for the past four years the number of
flights have decereased each year and I have my own aircraft. Our club is
restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't fly with a 1000ft
ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen snow for a great
number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the 52 flying weekends
last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to familly committments and
about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the reason gliding is declining
for new members, people loose interest through lack of flying weather. The
UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet winters, days like last
Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very few and far between.

Peter.

"Peter Seddon" wrote in message
...

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home
field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been
so
bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the
two
seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My caravan
had
a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we only flew for
three. When I look at my log book for the past four years the number of
flights have decereased each year and I have my own aircraft. Our club is
restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't fly with a 1000ft
ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen snow for a great
number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the 52 flying
weekends
last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to familly committments and
about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the reason gliding is declining
for new members, people loose interest through lack of flying weather. The
UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet winters, days like last
Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very few and far between.

Peter.



OK, I sympathize. Weather in dear old England is dreadful. I think Al
McDonald has been saying that for years. It's been a pretty wet year here
in Colorado, USA too.

OTOH, this Tuesday I towed from a snow covered runway into wave. At 18,000
feet, I had my finger on the mike button to call Denver Center for clearance
into the wave window. Before I transmitted the call, I checked the OAT. It
was -22F - pretty much the limit for gellcoat.

The wings were condensing frost right out of the supersaturated, supercooled
air. The canopy was 50% frosted over. (Yes, there really is such a thing
as clear air icing.) I asked the student to check spoilers and it took three
huge efforts to get them unlocked from the ice. I thought about landing a
spoilerless G103 on a snow covered runway with water hazards and decided
this wasn't the day so I didn't make the radio call. We didn't get rid of
the ice until below 9,000.

Ah well, the sun is shining and tomorrow should be warmer yet.

Bill Daniels

Peter Seddon wrote:



You've totally missed the point, in the UK this year the weather has been
so bad for flying that it's not only general flying that has been hit, the
two seater comp at the Wolds Gliding club was almost a wash out. My
caravan had a lake outside for almost every day and out of eight days we
only flew for three. When I look at my log book for the past four years
the number of flights have decereased each year and I have my own
aircraft. Our club is restricted to flying at weekends only and you can't
fly with a 1000ft ceiling of total cloud cover. Where I live I havn't seen
snow for a great number of years so naturally it drops as rain. Out of the
52 flying weekends last year, 4 were lost to holidays 6 were lost to
familly committments and about 30 were lost to bad weather. That 's the
reason gliding is declining for new members, people loose interest through
lack of flying weather. The UK has had three wery wet summers and mild wet
winters, days like last Sunday when I had 3hrs 3 mins to 12000ft are very
few and far between.

Peter.

Yes, but the point is that support for gliding is getting _worse_. The
weather isn't, in fact (and I speak from about 40 years experience in the
game), if anything it's getting better (remember global warming).

And although I take your point about this year, 2003 was one of the good
ones. (Certainly I managed 80 hours flying at a weekends only from North
Yorkshire, despite 6 weeks lost to health problems).

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:18:36 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
wrote:


I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

It's not about putting a ball into a basket or hitting it with a piece
of wood.
It's about the girls watching you do that.

How many girls watched your low saves and wanted your phone number
after you had managed to get home?






Bye
Andreas

At the risk of embarrassment, at a college dance I was spouting off
about how I had soloed an Aeronca Champ in 11 hours of dual
during my 11th grade.

Then I found out she had soloed an Aeronca Champ in 7 hours of
dual during high school.

It must have worked a little bit, though. That was 40 years ago,
and she's still here.

Andreas Maurer wrote in message ...
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 20:18:36 +0000, Robert Ehrlich
wrote:


I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

It's not about putting a ball into a basket or hitting it with a piece
of wood.
It's about the girls watching you do that.

How many girls watched your low saves and wanted your phone number
after you had managed to get home?






Bye
Andreas

Bert Willing wrote:

And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
money for anyways.

Well, I'm one of those catching-up-with-their-dreams folks and I see no
reason why 16 year olds' fickle fancies are worth more to gliding than
my dedication. Is my money a different colour? Do I work less hard for
the club? Why shouldn't gliding be a sport for middle-aged men? We're
too old to steal hubcaps.

And what do you mean by "the future of soaring"? If Eur200,000 gliders
are the future - and they're certainly the present - then sure as hell
16 year olds don't figure much in that future. Yes, there's room for
teenagers in gliding just like there is in ocean racing, and teenagers
are the future of gliding just like they're the future of ocean racing.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and those
"because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts have to
be dumped...

Try it.

If the teenagers don't like the effort involved, then 50year olds WILL
be the future of gliding because they WILL make the effort. If
teenagers don't like the way things are done, 50 year olds who DO like
these ways will be the future of gliding.

Why are you concerned about this nebulous "future" anyway? Enjoy your
gliding NOW. Do what you want to do in gliding NOW. When you don't
want to keep doing it, LEAVE. Someone else WILL take your place.

It won't be a teenager.

Gliding's fine (except for the IGC). Leave it alone.

Graeme Cant

Hmm, now I'm 30 and when I was 14-22 I spent the whole summer at the
airports. Sitting in the winch, pulling the cable, handling gliders,
retrieving sailplanes, working on contests etc-etc. How many people can
afford it once you have to work for your family...?
I do think we should attract young members but we have to optimize our
activity. For example when I started the basic training we were about 35
for only one IS28B2 It was just impossible to fly for all of us.

/Janos


Graeme Cant wrote:
Bert Willing wrote:

And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of
soaring, not any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams
folks) and gets the money for anyways.


Well, I'm one of those catching-up-with-their-dreams folks and I see no
reason why 16 year olds' fickle fancies are worth more to gliding than
my dedication. Is my money a different colour? Do I work less hard for
the club? Why shouldn't gliding be a sport for middle-aged men? We're
too old to steal hubcaps.

And what do you mean by "the future of soaring"? If Eur200,000 gliders
are the future - and they're certainly the present - then sure as hell
16 year olds don't figure much in that future. Yes, there's room for
teenagers in gliding just like there is in ocean racing, and teenagers
are the future of gliding just like they're the future of ocean racing.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years"
farts have to be dumped...


Try it.

If the teenagers don't like the effort involved, then 50year olds WILL
be the future of gliding because they WILL make the effort. If
teenagers don't like the way things are done, 50 year olds who DO like
these ways will be the future of gliding.

Why are you concerned about this nebulous "future" anyway? Enjoy your
gliding NOW. Do what you want to do in gliding NOW. When you don't
want to keep doing it, LEAVE. Someone else WILL take your place.

It won't be a teenager.

Gliding's fine (except for the IGC). Leave it alone.

Graeme Cant

Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in the
US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold out
status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the step
to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix