Tires again (but this time on the tow vehicle)

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Michael McNulty wrote:

they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
(This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)

Looking at the outcome of some liability lawsuits in the US, I'm surprized
that there are still manufactorers which recommend their product for
*anything*.

Stefan

Do you actually know anything about the legal system in the US, driving in
the US, or anything else in the US, or, are you just a inclined to
reflexively bash any mention of anything America?

Michael,
You will get the same response at the mercedes dealer. twenty years ago they
would sell a german produced tow hitch kit for any model and now they don't
want to talk about it.
If pressed they will refer you to a local hitch fabricator and only say that
they have other customers who have used them.
If you know about it to ask, there is a small shop handbook which covers all
of the production models worldwide and gives various specifications for
repair, alignment, and interchange parts, etc. You can find that widely
different wheels, springs, tires, shocks etc. are used in other countries
depending on installed equipment and intended use. It seems that the cars
shipped to OZ are the most ruggedized. The Aussie trailering springs I
ordered were in stock in a warehouse one day away and the dealer was happy
to sell the parts for an independent shop to install. You may find a similar
situation with the VW if you can find a guru.
Yes, the tort lawyers have screwed up things again IMNSHO.
Of course they may end up being the only ones around with enough money to
buy one of the new gliders coming out of europe.
Cheers!


"Michael McNulty" wrote in message
news:S6XMd.27890$mt.18900@fed1read03...

"Papa3" wrote in message
oups.com...
The Passat is a fantastic tow vehicle. With a curb weight of around
3800 lbs, all-wheel drive, stiff suspension, low CG, and a relatively
short coupling between hitch and rear axle, it's a great compromise
between tow vehicle and every day transportation. And with highway
mileage of about 25 (versus what - 16 for the Dodge?), I can still
afford to take a tow when I get to the airport! (and no, I don't really
tow at 75mph, but it is [was] no problem if I needed to for short
bursts with the old setup).

P3


A few years ago I too thought that the Passat wagon looked like a good
choice to tow a glider trailer. When I went to look into buying one I
found
out that "Volkswagon recommends that you don't use this vehicle for
towing".
I first thought that the dealer was full of it, so I called Volkswagon
myself and, after being handed off a few times, got the definitive answer
that "we (VW) do not recommend that the Passat (or Jetta) be used for
towing
and we do not publish any recomended trailer weight limit." Now, I
certainly won't argue with someone who says that he has had good results
using a Passat to tow, but I personally tend to believe the manufacture
when
they say that you should not use their automobile for towing.
(This is in the US; perhaps in Europe VW gives a different story.)

Does anyone have experience towing with a Subaru Outback (2005 model
especially)? It bests the Passat wagon in most of the specs that I care
about, including price, and it is rated to tow 2700 lbs (1225 kg).

"Pete Reinhart" wrote in message
...
Michael,
You will get the same response at the mercedes dealer. twenty years ago
they
would sell a german produced tow hitch kit for any model and now they
don't
want to talk about it.

snip

From what I've read, while Mercedes does give a tow rating for many of their
cars sold in German, they limit the speed while towing to either 55 mph or
62 mph (100 km/h). This is really not suitable for highway use in the
Western United States.

I have plenty of choices of when I buy a car. I don't need to buy one that
the manufacturer says is not suitable for my intended use.

I just posted a similar thought in response to Michael's note, above.
A suggestion for folks in the US might be to leverage the soaring
community in other countries to do their research there. Every time
I've been at a glider operation in Germany, I've seen tow hitches that
blow the doors off of anything you can get in the States mounted on
cars that I've been told "cannot possibly tow a glider trailer."
Granted, many of the towing distances are shorter, but the Autobahn and
the Alps equal anything we have here in terms of testing towing
capability...

On a humorous note, the paid placement ad that's showing up right over
here -- is from Dalan Hitches, maker of the aftermarket hitch for
my Passat that I so roundly criticized in the prior posting.

Michael,

I went through the same rigamarole with VW US (which, by the way, has
just an awful reputation for warranty and other support - so I'm not
surprised). On the other hand, my cousin in Germany tows gliders with
an Audi A6 Variant, and he's about as anal as it gets when it comes to
following "ze rules." So, I stopped in at a VW dealer in Germany
when I was there a few years back. Not only do they publish numbers
for towing (similar to the Australian numbers posted above - something
like 1250kg) but they had in-stock an awesome tow hitch setup. It
requires pulling the rear bumper to install, but it provides a truly
integrated receiver hitch. Unfortunately, it would have cost an arm
and a leg to ship here, which does bring up another issue...

The aftermarket tow hitches available for the Passat in the US are a
joke. They require some serious re-engineering to make them suitable
for towing anything other than a Sunfish boat and trailer. Luckily,
one of the local Soaring gurus is also a fabrication wizard, and with
judicious use of doublers and new bolt patterns, we have a successful
setup. But, if I were to do it again, I'd find a way to get the
European hitch system shipped here.

Finally, one of the guys in my club has an Outback (2004, I think), and
he's very satisfied with it as a towing vehicle. I couldn't get over
the handling (I use the car for a lot of highway driving other than
towing) and the looks (which are better in the newer models), otherwise
I'd be driving an Outback right now.

P3

Finally, one of the guys in my club has an Outback (2004, I think), and
he's very satisfied with it as a towing vehicle. I couldn't get over
the handling (I use the car for a lot of highway driving other than
towing) and the looks (which are better in the newer models), otherwise
I'd be driving an Outback right now.

P3


Several posts in this thread have mentioned the Subaru Outback. It
appears to have a rather large distance between the rear axle and the
tow hitch. I wonder how that affects handling?

By contrast, the VW Golf has a relatively short distance between the
rear axle and hitch. And the Mercedes B-Class (a Golf sized car with
200 hp coming in November) has almost no rear overhang, and thus would
have an especially short distance between axle and hitch (rear overhang
is 23% of wheelbase, while Golf is 29%, and Outback appears to be close
to 40%).

Based on my desire for a small car that has considerable power, a short
distance between axle and hitch, a low center of gravity, and a rather
stiff suspension with performance tires, I wonder if the B-Class (about
$25,000, allegedly) would be a good choice.

Here in Germany, Volkswagon sells a towing package for the Passat and
Jetta.

Bob

At 19:30 05 February 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Greg Arnold wrote:
Several posts in this thread have mentioned the Subaru
Outback. It
appears to have a rather large distance between the
rear axle and the
tow hitch. I wonder how that affects handling?

One of the partners in our Duo tows it with his Outback,
and he's
indicated that the combo works fine. I've been tempted
to get one
myself, but I'd likely opt for the Forester, which
has a larger
specified tow capacity (2500 lbs, I believe), and looks
like it has less
overhang.

Marc

Interesting difference - in the UK the Outback has
a towing limits of 1800 to 2000lbs and the Forester
1500 to 200lbs, both depending on the precise model.
The Forester is based on the Impreza chassis which
is a size down from the Legacy/Outback. I had a Legacy
which was a good tow car and have been considering
another or a Forester (if I can't get my 16 year old
Mercedes 4WD system fixed).

It is always puzzling to listen in the the US tow car
discussions because there seem to be reports of problems
towing with cars that we regard as excellent in Europe.
My only hypothesis is that it is because of the softer
suspension set ups preferred in the US market. I
have seen an LS7 towed around Europe with a Peugot
205 and used a 1400cc 75 hp Honda Civic Shuttle myself
one year which made a super stable towcar because of
its wide wheel base and firm suspension.

John Galloway

Following this logic, I'd be better off using an M-1
Abrahms... :-))

You are correct. In a panic, rainy, downhill stop
situation, I'd take the Abrams if it was available
)

All kidding aside, the 3/4-ton Dodge diesel gets 25
MPG empty, 20 in town and 20 pulling the sailplane
trailer. (I'm not exaggerating. I keep a fuel logbook
for tax purposes.) In its 2 WD configuration, 5 speed,
and without a lot of bells and whistles, it cost around
$26000 new in 2001. It now has 165,000 miles (mostly
pulling the trailer) and runs like new. Other than
oil changes, it's never been in the shop. I expect
it to last around 300,000 miles. The last set of tires
even lasted 90,000 miles! It's big, comfortable and
roomy enough for all my gear. I've run the numbers.
It is the cheapest sailplane transporter there is.
And no sparkplugs to change )

There is NEVER a question about towing authority.
I've had a few panic stop situations that would have
been pretty scary in anything lighter. I've had trailer
tires blow and wouldn't have even known if I hadn't
heard the bang.

I've seen a sailplane trailer blow a tire and wrap
itself around an Acura Legend. Totaled the car and
trailer. Luckily, the sailplane wasn't in it at the
time. Nearly sideswiped a semi in the process. Up
till then, it towed fine.

If you tow a lot with the VW, you can expect to put
a new transmission in before 100,000 miles. And a
hefty fee to tow it and the trailer from whatever God-forsaken
stretch of highway it failed on...probably at midnight.

Just my $.02 worth.





At 22:00 04 February 2005, Papa3 wrote:
IMHO, not nearly enough
tow vehicle mass, regardless of tires

Following this logic, I'd be better off using an M-1
Abrahms... :-))

The Passat is a fantastic tow vehicle. With a curb
weight of around
3800 lbs, all-wheel drive, stiff suspension, low CG,
and a relatively
short coupling between hitch and rear axle, it's a
great compromise
between tow vehicle and every day transportation.
And with highway
mileage of about 25 (versus what - 16 for the Dodge?),
I can still
afford to take a tow when I get to the airport! (and
no, I don't really
tow at 75mph, but it is [was] no problem if I needed
to for short
bursts with the old setup).

P3

Bob C wrote:

All kidding aside, the 3/4-ton Dodge diesel gets 25
MPG empty, 20 in town and 20 pulling the sailplane
trailer.

Indeed,

I had the choice of the new 2004.5 CTD or the older version and went
with the new motor - gets lower mileage for sure. But that 600 ft. lbs.
of torque sure makes for nice climbs. I've towed with lots of different
things and it's sure nice to be in charge of the formation on a wet
mountain pass!

Jim