Navigation

vincent p. norris wrote:
If you mean celestial navigation, there isn't much point in private
pilots learning that, unless it's just to satisfy their intellectual
curiosity. Celestial nav requires expensive equipment and intensive
training; and in any case is virtually impossible to carry out while
flying a private aircraft.

The equipment isn't really that expensive. You can buy a reconditioned
aviation sextant for $990
(http://www.celestaire.com/catalog/products/1502.html), and perfectly good
brand new marine one for about $400 ($1,000 for a top-of-the-line model).
You'll need a "chronometer" (which these days means a $10 digital watch)
and some books of astronomical tables (or, more likely these days, a
program for your calculator or laptop).

There is certainly an investment in training (probably 20 hours of
classroom time). The biggest problem is that any aircraft most of us are
ever likely to get access to won't have an observation port. For $5.4
Million, however, you could get yourself a T-43A
(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/t-43.htm) and go to town. Flight
crew not included.

I understand even the Naval Academy no longer teaches celestial nav,
which does kinda sadden me, if only for nostalgic reasons.

I agree with Vincent. Celestial nav is cool, but just isn't useful any
more. It's an interesting thing to learn, but only any practical value is
long since gone. GPS drove the last nail in the celestial coffin 10 years
ago.

Roy, I agree that GPS has ended the need for celestial nav (it was more
talked about than actually used except in commercial and military - and
a few adventurers)... However, GPS has not ended the need for other
means of navigation... The fact that GPS can be jammed from the ground
over a wide area, simply and at low cost, has the Pentagon thinking...
Just as differential GPS (WAAS) is the hot thing in GPS today for
improving accuracy, differential Loran is being actively implemented...

"LORAN?!? I thought that went away years ago.", sez Charley
McCarthy.... for those block heads old enough to catch the reference

Nope, not a bit... The gov't in it's infinite wisdom is spending mucho
bucks on a multi year project installing differential Loran
transmitters... Now, yes this is immediately aimed at commercial
shipping around large ports, but remember, the large brown pieces roll
down hill, getting smaller and less expensive as they go... So, don't
pull out your Loran gear just yet because it is going to be with us for
a long time...

As a guy who learned to fly when an NDB approach was state of the art
whoever that guy Art was, I still drag paper charts around with
me... I love my moving map GPS boy have I gotten lazy but as a guy
who made his living in electronics I know how fast all the magic smoke
can leak out of those little black, chip thingies... Notice that the
gov't is still investing in new ILS installations... My podunk airport
has one 98% finished and waiting on activation... So, don't give up
practicing the various types of ILS / VOR navigation...

denny

Denny wrote:
Roy, I agree that GPS has ended the need for celestial nav (it was more
talked about than actually used except in commercial and military - and
a few adventurers)... However, GPS has not ended the need for other
means of navigation...

I never said it did. My guess is the ILS is going to be here for a
long time.

As a guy who learned to fly when an NDB approach was state of the art...

Geez, you must be as old as I am!

I still drag paper charts around with me...

I can't even imagine going very far from home without paper charts.
Like you, I love my GPS and have been spoiled by it, but it's really
there in case my radios fail in IFR. Half the fun of flying VFR is
following my progress on a sectional chart.

vince norris

Celestial nav requires expensive equipment and intensive
training; and in any case is virtually impossible to carry out while
flying a private aircraft.

The equipment isn't really that expensive. You can buy a reconditioned
aviation sextant for $990

That's what I call expensive!

and some books of astronomical tables (or, more likely these days, a
program for your calculator or laptop).

Because of the small market for those books, I assumed they are pretty
darned expensive, too. But I found a Nautical Almanac at Amazon for
under $20. Not sure if it's the same book, but it seems to be. When
I tried to find a copy of Star Tables, all I could get was stuff about
Star Trek.

There is certainly an investment in training (probably 20 hours of
classroom time).

Well, I didn't count them, but I'm sure I spent a hell of a lot more
than 20 hours learning celestial nav as an aviation cadet at Pensacola
and Corpus Christi. The University of Illinois must have thought so,
too; when I got out and went back there, and showed them my service
records, they gave me 30 semester of college credits in celestial
navigation! That's a full college year of work! (That enabled me to
get my degree and begin grad work one year earlier than I expected.)

Celestial nav is cool, but just isn't useful any more. It's an interesting
thing to learn, but only any practical value is long since gone.
GPS drove the last nail in the celestial coffin 10 years ago.

About five years ago, a friend and several of his friends who have
much more money than I have, sailed a catamaran around the world. A
big one, both hulls 40 feet long. He carried three GPS units, but he
also learned celestial nav before he set out, just in case.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...

About five years ago, a friend and several of his friends who have
much more money than I have, sailed a catamaran around the world. A
big one, both hulls 40 feet long. He carried three GPS units, but he
also learned celestial nav before he set out, just in case.


I also sail and have always said that if (when) I go way offshore (eg
Newport-Bermuda) I would learn celestial. Why? practically speaking I always
said I don't want to rely on batteries and satellites.

But to be honest, what's more likely to fail? A couple of ruggedized
solid-state electronic devices in a waterproof bag, or a piece of machinery
built to jewelry precision and a stack of paper tables?

And don't tell me about the satellites- if the GPS network goes down for an
extended time (at sailboat speeds, being without GPS for a few days
shouldn't be a big deal) then I suspect I won't want to be finding
civilization anytime soon.

-cwk.

"Colin W Kingsbury" wrote

I also sail and have always said that if (when) I go way offshore (eg
Newport-Bermuda) I would learn celestial. Why? practically speaking I
always
said I don't want to rely on batteries and satellites.

But to be honest, what's more likely to fail? A couple of ruggedized
solid-state electronic devices in a waterproof bag, or a piece of
machinery
built to jewelry precision and a stack of paper tables?

And don't tell me about the satellites- if the GPS network goes down for
an
extended time (at sailboat speeds, being without GPS for a few days
shouldn't be a big deal) then I suspect I won't want to be finding
civilization anytime soon.

-cwk.

Yep, and with sailing, sal****er gets into everything that is totally
watetproofed, too. Don't ask how; it is a rule. It is also a rule that
electrons, transistors and sal****er are not friends. g

It is also good, that by the time
--
Jim in NC you get done with the sights, and lookups, and calculations, you
are not 25 miles away, in a sailboat! (unless you are really slow) g

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 05:28:01 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
wrote in
. net::

But to be honest, what's more likely to fail? A couple of ruggedized
solid-state electronic devices in a waterproof bag, or a piece of machinery
built to jewelry precision and a stack of paper tables?

All it would take for both of them to fail is several days of dense
overcast weather. Perhaps a backup compass would be prudent. :-)

"Colin W Kingsbury" writes:
"vincent p. norris" wrote

About five years ago, a friend and several of his friends who have
much more money than I have, sailed a catamaran around the world. A
big one, both hulls 40 feet long. He carried three GPS units, but he
also learned celestial nav before he set out, just in case.

I also sail and have always said that if (when) I go way offshore (eg
Newport-Bermuda) I would learn celestial. Why? practically speaking I always
said I don't want to rely on batteries and satellites.

As a fail-safe, if you turn west won't you get to North America
in some reasonable amount of time?

But to be honest, what's more likely to fail? A couple of ruggedized
solid-state electronic devices in a waterproof bag, or a piece of machinery
built to jewelry precision and a stack of paper tables?

And don't tell me about the satellites- if the GPS network goes down for an
extended time (at sailboat speeds, being without GPS for a few days
shouldn't be a big deal) then I suspect I won't want to be finding
civilization anytime soon.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
The Air Force manual "Air Navigation" is on line he
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfi...fpam11-216.pdf

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA


Ne Obliviscaris

Thanks for the link.

It is a 70,928kb .pdf It downloaded ok but would repeatedly time out when I
tried to save it to disk. I had to slowly page down through all 427 pages
to force the graphics to load, then it saved ok.

Blue skies to all