PLEASE NEED HELP with Cherokee 180 metal bulkhead problem under back seat

C wrote:

Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
upward and caused this damage.

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

"Off end runway excursion. Nose gear collapsed, prop and engine
struck, engine incurred sudden stop. Sent engine to PenYan for
teardown/inspection/build up. Replaced everything forward of firewall
with new or serviceable."

Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
was worth mentioning or repairing correctly. Admittedly, compared to
the mangled nose gear and cowl -- that tear in the aluminum frame
member would have seemed very minor. But it was still damaged and he
should have repaired it correctly -- instead of just sticking some
cherry-max rivets in it and ignoring it.

Oh, and "NO" -- Cherokees can handle "off-pavement" just fine. I've
had this and another Cherokee on soft fields many times with no
difficulty. But whatever this dufus did back in '92 was sufficiently
fast and violent to collapse the nose gear. So, I guess some damage
to the rear-wing-strut attachment point shouldn't be too surprising.



Chuck

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:54:27 GMT, C wrote:

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

It is obvious this plane was in a major accident, and the wing damage
occurred at that time. It is not surprising that the damage and
repair to the wing spar box is not noted in the logs. Many
prospective buyers would take a pass on a plane that has had airframe
damage relating to the wingspar or spar box. Given the timeframe of
the damage (early 90s) there was probably heightened sensitivity to
the issue - The FAA released and then rescinded an AD for Piper
Cherokee wingspars in the late 80s.

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a ball
of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build. You
can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.

Best,
Karl


"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:54:27 GMT, C wrote:

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack
apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

It is obvious this plane was in a major accident, and the wing damage
occurred at that time. It is not surprising that the damage and
repair to the wing spar box is not noted in the logs. Many
prospective buyers would take a pass on a plane that has had airframe
damage relating to the wingspar or spar box. Given the timeframe of
the damage (early 90s) there was probably heightened sensitivity to
the issue - The FAA released and then rescinded an AD for Piper
Cherokee wingspars in the late 80s.

"kage" wrote in message
...

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
You can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.


Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"kage" wrote in message
...

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
You can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.

Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

C185E, airworthy in '99, engine in '69. That reads about right for
something that slipped through the cracks for awhile...

Nothing shows up in a NTSB or FAA accident search either... Scary...

The accident was in British Columbia. The guy ran out of gas about 1/4 mile
short of Nimpo Lake.

Karl

C185E, airworthy in '99, engine in '69. That reads about right for
something that slipped through the cracks for awhile...

Nothing shows up in a NTSB or FAA accident search either... Scary...

That's a good question. I think I'll look up serial numbers on the net right
now.

Karl

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"kage" wrote in message
...

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next
to it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
You can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.


Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

"kage" wrote in message
...
That's a good question. I think I'll look up serial numbers on the net
right now.


Well, the serial numbers still match:

My airplane N2764J--------Ser#1514
N2777J-----------------------Ser#1527


Might be a different airplane with the same ser# and N#, But that's still a
bunch of hanky-panky.

Karl

C wrote:

Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
was worth mentioning or repairing correctly.

Perhaps he didn't notice at the time.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Oh, he noticed alright... He shot a couple cherry-max rivets up from
the bottom into the flange that had torn away from the belly skin.
Didn't even get them tight! That's the whole half-assed repair he did
on this damage. You can see the rivets in the first picture.

Chuck



On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 03:30:01 GMT, George Patterson
wrote:

C wrote:

Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
was worth mentioning or repairing correctly.

Perhaps he didn't notice at the time.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.