Cable break recovery spin entry... as previously discussed

In article ,
"Capt. Geoffry Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote:

You could attempt a kinda chandelle like turn, but you are starting out nose
high, low speed, and straight ahead. It would take a lot of forward stick to
keep the G loading below 1 throughout the manouver I would think.

This doesn't make sense. The G loading will stay appropriate to your
current speed at all times as long as the stick is anywhere except hard
back. Above 1, below 1, doesn't matter. Angle of attack is what
matters, and the AoA is fine as long as the stick is somewhere near the
middle. Right forward is completely unnecessary.

I don't think I'd try a chandelle from that position, but the limiting
factor would be roll rate and getting in sufficient bank to be useful
before you ran out of speed. Slow over the top banked 90 degrees and
pulling half a G aroudn the corner would be useful in getting turned
around, if you kept the string straight and the stick back not too far.
Slow over the top and banked 30 degrees would do you very little good
(though I don't think it would hurt).

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

Dear Mr (or Mrs or Ms or Miss) Soarski,

Whoever you are, please remind me not to stand on or near any airfield where
you are flying, as I don't want a glider falling on top of me. Feeding in
full rudder after a rope or cable break almost guarantees a spin and once
you are in one you will lose at least 150 ft per turn plus another 300ft to
recover. I do hope you were not being serious!

The correct recovery from a winch launch cable break is to lower the nose
fairly rapidly to slightly below the normal approach attitude, allow the
speed to build up to the correct approach speed for the day and then decide
what to do, depending on your height and landing options ahead. It is
usually safer to land ahead if you can. While you are waiting for the nose
to come down it is also a good idea to pull the cable release twice to get
rid of any remaining broken cable, so it can't get caught round any trees,
power lines, etc.

From aerotow you are usually in a more level attitude and usually have
plenty of speed. If the rope breaks just lower the nose slightly and monitor
your airspeed. If you are low you have to land more or less straight ahead.
With a bit more height - say 200 ft or more, a 180 degree turn is possible,
but must be flown accurately - not skidded round on the rudder.

Regards
Derek C (UK Instructor)

05:18 02 July 2005 'Soarski' wrote:
I have never been in that predicament. Never seen a cable break
or lost power at below 200 ft or the tow rope on aero tow.
I do have 1000s of hours and acro time.

If I would want to land downwind on the runway I was taking off
I could be inclined to just kick in full rudder, and make the 180 Turn
via a "Hammerhead" I think it is called a "Kehre" in German, or a
"Turn? There would be mostly rudder work required, some back preasure
on coming out of a dive following the wingover, which is really half a
spin. Has anyone ever seen that done? Actually, come to think of it, I
have, in an airshow, a long time ago in a clipped wing Cub.

I will have to try at altitude, what will need more altitude to
recover

At 05:18 02 July 2005, Soarski wrote:

If I would want to land downwind on the runway I was
taking off
I could be inclined to just kick in full rudder, and
make the 180 Turn
via a 'Hammerhead' I think it is called a 'Kehre' in
German, or a
'Turn? There would be mostly rudder work required,
some back preasure
on coming out of a dive following the wingover, which
is really half a
spin. Has anyone ever seen that done? Actually, come
to think of it, I
have, in an airshow, a long time ago in a clipped wing
Cub.

I will have to try at altitude, what will need more
altitude to
recover.

DB

So you're talking about some sort of stall turn at
low speed off a 45 degree upline. I think the speed
would be too slow to get any significant yaw. At slow
speed, high AoA you'll get a lot of roll with some
nose drop, almost a low energy flick/snap roll to a
very steep (inverted?) downline.

If you're high enough, you can recover.

The steep climb rate of a winch launch means that you
will then be passing the launch point at low level,
heading downwind at high speed through any landing
traffic, needing to do a smart 180 to land back on
the airfield; not really possible in a K13.

This all sounds like a lot of fun but I'm not sure
we should be teaching it to pre-solo pilots


Pushing over forward very hard after cable break, you
could get into a
negative flight regime, possibly into an inverted spin?

With the typical soaring/training aerofoils used, and
at low speed, that would need an incredibly rapid push.
Even then, so long as the pilot keeps the rudder centralised,
there's no chance of an inverted spin.

Winch techniques have evolved over decades with safety
as the first priority. There's nothing wrong with a
bit of imagination but Soarski, that's a bit too much.

Ed

Edward Lockhart wrote:

At 05:18 02 July 2005, Soarski wrote:

If I would want to land downwind on the runway I was
taking off
I could be inclined to just kick in full rudder, and
make the 180 Turn
via a 'Hammerhead' I think it is called a 'Kehre' in
German, or a
'Turn? There would be mostly rudder work required,
some back preasure
on coming out of a dive following the wingover, which
is really half a
spin. Has anyone ever seen that done? Actually, come
to think of it, I
have, in an airshow, a long time ago in a clipped wing
Cub.

I will have to try at altitude, what will need more
altitude to
recover.

DB

So you're talking about some sort of stall turn at
low speed off a 45 degree upline. I think the speed
would be too slow to get any significant yaw. At slow
speed, high AoA you'll get a lot of roll with some
nose drop, almost a low energy flick/snap roll to a
very steep (inverted?) downline.

If you're high enough, you can recover.

The steep climb rate of a winch launch means that you
will then be passing the launch point at low level,
heading downwind at high speed through any landing
traffic, needing to do a smart 180 to land back on
the airfield; not really possible in a K13.

This all sounds like a lot of fun but I'm not sure
we should be teaching it to pre-solo pilots


Pushing over forward very hard after cable break, you
could get into a
negative flight regime, possibly into an inverted spin?

With the typical soaring/training aerofoils used, and
at low speed, that would need an incredibly rapid push.
Even then, so long as the pilot keeps the rudder centralised,
there's no chance of an inverted spin.

Winch techniques have evolved over decades with safety
as the first priority. There's nothing wrong with a
bit of imagination but Soarski, that's a bit too much.

Ed
Speaking of over the top.

Slingby Swallow takes winch launch to 1100agl.
Rolls inverted.
Dives out.
Loops.
Chandelles.
Lands.

You had to be there.

Frank

At 20:30 02 July 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
Speaking of over the top.

Slingby Swallow takes winch launch to 1100agl.
Rolls inverted.
Dives out.
Loops.
Chandelles.
Lands.

You had to be there.

Frank

Pilot by the name of Doug Ross, No 2 GC UK? Before
they put the elevator stops on to prevent you doing
it. Spoilsports.

Don Johnstone wrote:

At 20:30 02 July 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
Speaking of over the top.

Slingby Swallow takes winch launch to 1100agl.
Rolls inverted.
Dives out.
Loops.
Chandelles.
Lands.

You had to be there.

Frank

Pilot by the name of Doug Ross, No 2 GC UK? Before
they put the elevator stops on to prevent you doing
it. Spoilsports.

No, the inimitable Mick Boyden.

The tricky bit is that twist is such that all the flying load is on the tips
while inverted. Gotta hope for good glue and no bumps.

Ahhh, stepped into a hornet's nest here? The thought came to me after
seeing the rather lengthy
tales in the beginning of this thread. I am against yanking the stick
forward and then back, hard or fully. So the thought of mostly rudder
work, like entering or coming out of a spin or half a spin came to me.
Naturally one would not teach that, but on the other hand, some of you
might have a "Hammerhead " demonstrated to you, or take some Acro
instruction? Edward aparently understood what I was thinking. He is
right, one would come out of that half spin recovery too fast which
would not work on a tight airfield.

What Frank saw after the loop and before the landing with that Swallow
might have been a hammerhead rather than a Chandelle, which would have
taken too long. Spin entry is faster. Of course, the Swallow is a very
light aircraft and can do those manouvers much slower than the glass
slippers.

In the late 50s a former Luftwaffe Pilot named Karlie Marsen did Acro
work out of a winch launch regularly at Flugplatzfests same what Frank
saw,.. in a Lo 100.......He was a skier too!

Soarski