Missed approach procedure...

Perhaps an example from "nospam" of an actual plate would be more
instructive.

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?

Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:


Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.


I'm just trying to understand in the general sense what the rules are.
In reading the recent AOPA magazine it had a sumary of accidents in
CA and one was someone getting a radar vector and assuming that he
could let down to the crossing altitude of the next segment.
He did this at night and it was fatal.

I understand that not understanding the subleties of what the rules
are for flying IFR can also be Fatal so I'm just trying to understand.

Another approach with a similar missed that is unlclear:

KCNO ILS RWY 26R

Missed:
Climb to 1400 then climbing left turn to 4000 direct PDZ and hold.

Looking at the plate missed seems to be about 4 mi from PDZ.
DH is 836 so at 200ft /mi 1400 gets you to 6 mi from PDZ
Assume that the turn gives you another 200 ft thats 1600 and 6 miles
at 200 per nm that gets you to PDZ and 2800.

The missed specifies 4000

So what do you do hold at PDZ and climb to 4000?


I would fly 255 until I reached 1400 feet. I would then do a
climbing left turn direct to PDZ. If by the time I got to PDZ I was
not at 4000 I would enter the hold and continue to climb until I
reached 4000.


Again in this specific case it looks like that would be safe.

"ArtP" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:


Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

Assuming you are in radar contact (and that is a very good bet) if you
followed your own advice you would get a call from ATC asking you what
you're doing. The missed says to climb to 3000' via a specified route
consisting of a heading and a radial to intercept. If you are intercepting a
radial, a turn is implied.

-Greg

ArtP wrote:

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 20:45:57 -0800, wrote:

Take a look at the ILS to RWY 24 and (K)CRQ

This is where I saw the missed. It is not a good example as the missed
takes you out over the ocean and in fact either way you look at it, it
would be safe.

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:17:04 -0800, wrote:

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

That was my confusion,
I was looking at the missed symbols, trying to decide what to do if
you are not at 3000 before the radial.

"ArtP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:17:04 -0800, wrote:

I would climb to 3000 then I would do the turn. If they wanted you to
turn before you reached 3000 they would have specified a climbing turn
or do what they did below (specify an altitude straight ahead and then
a climbing turn). When they specify a climb altitude before the turn,
you are expected to be at that altitude before you start the turn.

That is wrong.

You are right. I looked at the plate again and the description
disagrees with the little symbols in the profile. The descriptions has
an "and" in it while the symbols show two separate operations. In
other plates (RWI VOR/DME 22) a climb and an interception is shown in
a single symbol rather than two separate ones.

There is no disagreement from my point of view. The first symbol in both
cases gives the altitude to climb to and the initial route. Altitude, route.
I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes, although MYV ILS 14
is a local approach to me and is the only one that's given me fits in
training since you have two radials to track to define the route to the hold
and the intercept you choose really defines what the needles do. Have fun:
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...t/MYV_ir14.pdf

Hint, you want your indicators set so you're inbound on the ILS R-085 (ie
set OBS to 265) and outbound SAC R-329 (ie OBS to 329) to not get confused
and remember which one you want to end up on. Note the briefing boxes
really don't ever give you a flyable clearance, they really are meant to be
an aid to briefing. The text properly defines the published missed.

cheers
-Greg
PP ASEL IA

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

"Ryan Ferguson" wrote in message
m...
"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

Yes, a very interesting missed approach procedure. And, to tie to the other
part of the thread: if you haven't gotten to 8000 by the time you get to
I-RPO, what should you do? (By my reckoning it takes 403 ft/nm climb to get
there.)

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

In article ,
(Ryan Ferguson) wrote:

"Greg Goodknight" wrote in message
thlink.net...

I can't think of any missed that has very tricky routes

Check this one out.

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...st/SZT_ldA.pdf

The missed approach instructions read:

"MISSED APPROACH: Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME, then climbing right
turn via SZT bearing 030 degrees to SZT NDB, then via SZT bearing 181
degrees and COE R-359 to COE VOR/DME and hold." (And of course it's a
parallel entry!)

-Ryan

Wow. What on earth did they have in mind when the wrote that? The
route is bizarre. By the time you reach 8000, you're above the sector
MSA (and 3000 feet above anything shown on the chart). What point is
there in making you turn west to Sandpoe instead of just going direct
Coeur D'Alane?

The other interesting thing is that you've got a 5000 foot climb ahead
of you before you can turn. In some types, it may be hard to make 8000
before I-RPO 10 DME! My 172N POH say it takes 14 miles to climb from
3000 to 8000 in no wind and standard atmosphere (obviously worse in the
summer or with a tailwind). The MAP is 2 DME on the front course, so
you've only got 12 miles.

I'm not even quite sure what "Climb to 8000 to I-RPO 10 DME" requires of
you. What if you reach 10 DME and you're not at 8000 yet? Is it worse
to start the turn before you're high enough or to keep climbing straight
ahead beyond where you're supposed to turn? No clue that I can see from
the procedure plate.

Another interesting thing about this approach is that starting from COE
as an IAF to the MAP and then flying the missed to I-RPO 10 DME then
back to COE looks like about 86 nm. I'll bet that takes a full hour in
a 172. That'll put a crimp in your style if you only planned the
minimum legal IFR fuel reserves.

I suppose this kind of stuff is routine in the mountains, but to a
flatlander like me, it sure looks wild.