New CFI

The requirement for CFIs (in airplanes) to have an instrument rating
has nothing to do with the requirement of CFIs to have a commercial (or
higher) certificate. It is stated right in FAR 61.183 that to be
eligible for a CFI certificate with an airplane, powered lift or
instrument rating you must have an instrument rating (or instrument
privileges) on your pilot certificate. The instrument rating
requirement is there, presumably, so the instructor can get you out of
a jam if you accidentally get into IMC. It is of course possible to be
a helicopter CFI without having an instrument rating.

It is also not necessarily true that a CFII or an MEI is better than a
"basic" CFI. From the FAA perspective there is no such thing as a
"basic" CFI, only a flight instructor certificate, and ratings that can
go on that certificate. While the usual progression is: Airplane
Single Engine, Instrument Airplane, Airplane Multi-Engine; The
instructor ratings can actually be earned in any order. That is, it is
possible, although not common, to get a flight instructor certificate
with an "Instrument Airplane" rating but not an "Airplane Single
Engine" rating. Such an instructor could give training toward an
instrument rating, but could not give training toward a private or
commercial certificate.

One advantage of doing the CFI-I rating first is that when you later
train for you airplane single engine rating, you can do all of the
training and the checkride in a non-complex aircraft since you already
demonstrated complex airplane proficiency on the instrument checkride.

Jeff H., CFI ASE/AME/IA

PS Now for the bonus question. How could one get an airplane CFI
certificate without ever flying a retractable gear airplane?

There are tens of thousands of airplane CFIs out there today that had never
flown a retract. I'm one of them.

Jim


PS Now for the bonus question. How could one get an airplane CFI
certificate without ever flying a retractable gear airplane?

wrote:

PS Now for the bonus question. How could one get an airplane CFI
certificate without ever flying a retractable gear airplane?

I can see two possibilities: i) grand-fathered in from a time
when you could get a commercial without flying a complex aircraft
(but then I haven't checked the historical regulations); or, more
likely: ii) did all his training, commercial and CFI, on floats...

--Sylvain

RST Engineering wrote:
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50 miles
*or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a General
Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also prohibit flight
instruction for hire to these limitations.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and would
severely limit the instructor rating.

It sounds to me like there it's a possibility that there's come
confusion regarding the difference between holding an instrument rating
(the instructor is allowed to fly IFR) and holding a CFII (Certificated
Flight Instructor, Instrument) rating (he's allowed to teach instrument
flying). (I know you know the difference Jim, I'm being this
descriptive for the benefit of the original poster). There have been
threads here regarding attaining a commercial or CFI certificate
without an instrument rating. As I recall (and as Pete said) at least
the commercial is definitely possible. I'd also bet it's relatively
uncommon.

As for the original question regarding flying with a brand new CFI...
I'd do it. As a student and as a pilot you'll get the opportunity to
fly with several instructors of varying style and ability. Finding a
CFI who has a teaching style compatible with your learning style is way
more important than the number of years your teacher has held his
credentials. Call me crazy, but I put a little faith in the system.
When the FAA says you're worthy of the private pilot certificate, will
you trust yourself to fly yourself? The FAA says the young CFI is
worthy of teaching you to fly, and he's been through a wringer to get
them to say it.

-R

I'd agree with Rob. That and the New guy will normally have a better
attitude. He will usually still be quite excited by the prospect of flying,
and this can transfer to the student. Al CFIAMI



"Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...

RST Engineering wrote:
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50
miles
*or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a General
Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also prohibit
flight
instruction for hire to these limitations.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and
would
severely limit the instructor rating.

It sounds to me like there it's a possibility that there's come
confusion regarding the difference between holding an instrument rating
(the instructor is allowed to fly IFR) and holding a CFII (Certificated
Flight Instructor, Instrument) rating (he's allowed to teach instrument
flying). (I know you know the difference Jim, I'm being this
descriptive for the benefit of the original poster). There have been
threads here regarding attaining a commercial or CFI certificate
without an instrument rating. As I recall (and as Pete said) at least
the commercial is definitely possible. I'd also bet it's relatively
uncommon.

As for the original question regarding flying with a brand new CFI...
I'd do it. As a student and as a pilot you'll get the opportunity to
fly with several instructors of varying style and ability. Finding a
CFI who has a teaching style compatible with your learning style is way
more important than the number of years your teacher has held his
credentials. Call me crazy, but I put a little faith in the system.
When the FAA says you're worthy of the private pilot certificate, will
you trust yourself to fly yourself? The FAA says the young CFI is
worthy of teaching you to fly, and he's been through a wringer to get
them to say it.

-R

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50
miles *or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a
General Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also
prohibit flight instruction for hire to these limitations.

Since a flight instructor can instruct with only a 3rd class medical,
clearly they are not actually exercising the privileges of their Commercial
certificate while instructing, and so just as clearly any restrictions on
the Commercial certificate do not apply.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and would
severely limit the instructor rating.

Your suspicion is not correct. Not having an instrument rating in no
significant way limits an instructor teaching a primary student.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
Except that the pilot (61.133 (b) (1)) will have stamped on their
certificate a prohibition about carrying persons for hire more than 50
miles *or* at night without an instrument rating. I'd like to see a
General Counsel interpretation as to whether this clause would also
prohibit flight instruction for hire to these limitations.

Since a flight instructor can instruct with only a 3rd class medical,
clearly they are not actually exercising the privileges of their
Commercial certificate while instructing, and so just as clearly any
restrictions on the Commercial certificate do not apply.

My suspicion is that it probably WOULD be interpreted with these
limitations, so cross country or night instruction would be out, and
would severely limit the instructor rating.

Your suspicion is not correct. Not having an instrument rating in no
significant way limits an instructor teaching a primary student.



You've got the reference to the Chief Counsel's opinion on this? Please
cite URL so I can read it for myself.

Jim

All CFIs are instrument rated. You must hold an instrument rating in
order to apply for a CFI certificate. The FBO probably simply meant
that the CFI was not an instrument instructor. That's no big deal. Many
CFIs who are not CFII's spent lots more time in the clouds than actual
CFIIs. For a private pilot, I wouldn't worry too much about him not
being an instrument instructor (but remember, he IS an instrument
pilot)

-Robert, CFI

Robert ...

That, unfortunately, is not true. 61.183 (c) (2) says that you have to have
an instrument rating *OR* privileges on that person's pilot certificate
appropriate to the rating sought.

For example, if I wanted to apply for a CFII, I would have to have the
instrument rating. If I wanted to apply for a CFI SEL, I would have to have
a commercial with a SEL rating on it -- no instrument.

Having said that (irregardless of the illiterate bonehead in here who has
neither a CFI or a commercial) if you get a commercial rating without an
instrument ticket, you are limited to working within 50 miles of your home
base AND no night commercial activities.

Now, whether that carries over to charging primary students for cross
country and night flight is not yet fully answered.

And, yes, you DO have to have a commercial ticket to charge students for
instruction.

My wife had her CFI years before she got her instrument ticket ... CFI-G
doesn't require the instrument, nor does the Commercial glider.


Jim
CFI A&G, CGI B, Commercial A&G, A&P/IA
other stuff not worth mentioning.



"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...

All CFIs are instrument rated. You must hold an instrument rating in
order to apply for a CFI certificate.

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...
[...]
Now, whether that carries over to charging primary students for cross
country and night flight is not yet fully answered.

It has been fully answered. It doesn't.

And, yes, you DO have to have a commercial ticket to charge students for
instruction.

No, you don't.

Pete