Potential Class B Bust

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...

Are you sure he didn't mean for you to file and not TELL the
FAA you had filed one until they start the enforcement?

I would think that you shouldn't tell them until they *finish* the
enforcement proceedings. After all, they might decide they can't prove you
did anything wrong (because of altimeter inaccuracy), or they might not
impose a penalty, and so on.

I've always heard that you should file the report, then let whatever happens
happen, and *finally*, if they say that they want to pull your certificate
or fine you, *then* you pull out your ASRS receipt and say "Sorry, I'm off
the hook."

I would think, by the way, that your instructor should file a separate ASRS
report.

"Charlie45" wrote in message
...

So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
see what happens from there...


--
Charlie45

What everybody else said. Your attorney is giving horrible advice and
obviously knows absolutely nothing about the NASA reports.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 16:08:37 GMT, "Dave Stadt"
wrote:


"Charlie45" wrote in message
.. .

So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
see what happens from there...


--
Charlie45

What everybody else said. Your attorney is giving horrible advice and
obviously knows absolutely nothing about the NASA reports.

He is however, advising very much in standard attorney-style. Which is
- to admit nothing. to apologize to nobody.

They are a baleful influence on business, sports and public life in
general, no doubt.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

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I think I would tend to agree with the others in the NG regarding the
ASRS form and get a second opinion, but quickly. Here is the text
directly from AC 00-46D, paragraph 9:

"c. The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or
occurrence involving a violation of
49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR is considered by FAA to be indicative
of a constructive attitude.
Such an attitude will tend to prevent Mure violations. Accordingly,
although a tiding of violation
may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be
imposed if
(1) the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;.
(2) the violation did not involve a criminal offense,& accident, or
action under 49 U.S.C.
Section 44709 which discloses a lack of qualification or competency,
which is wholly excluded
from this policy;
(3) the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to
have committed a
violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there
for a period of 5 years
prior to the date of occurrence; and
(4) the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or
she completed and
delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to
NASA under ASRS. See
paragraphs SC and 7b.
N&e: Paragraph 9 does not apply to air traffk controllers. Provisions
concerning air traffic
controllers involved in incidents reported under ASRS are addressed in
FAA Order 7210.3.G, Facility
Operations and Administration."

Charlie45 wrote:
So I spoke with an aviation attorney. He recommended that I hold off on
filing the NASA safety report at the moment. Given the situation and
that I really don't believe that I violated class Bravo it would not be
prudent to file the form until I receive the letter from the FAA. The
thought behind this is that I would be admitting to the violation if I
were to file the safety report. I will wait until I have the letter and
see what happens from there...


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Be sure to contact AOPA's Legal Services folks if you purchased the
coverage ($26/yr is cheap for a PP!) and get them involved! They will
make sure you are headed in the right direction. If you have not
purchased that coverage, then don't call them for this incident, but
purchase it for next time!

Also, Fill out that ASRS! I've actually taken to the practice of
keeping 1-2 forms in my flight bag, just in case.

Chris


Charlie45 wrote:
awsummerfield Wrote:

The worst would be disciplinary action, certificate suspension, etc.
But realistically, as a student, you would be given additional
training. Your CFI, if he was acting as PIC (he had valid medical,
license, etc) would be liable for any FAA actions. If you were acting
as PIC because your CFI did NOT have the medical, then you may be
considered as PIC, and would then be liable.

As a former DPE, I've seen a few of these actions in the past. The FAA
usually will be satisfied with the PIC taking remedial training. But in
the future, I would not talk to the FAA without first consulting an
aviation attorney. And as another poster said, fill out a NASA report
immediately!



Thank you guys for the prompt feedback. I will file the form and keep
you all posted how all of this pans out. Thanks.


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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:17:39 +0000, Charlie45
wrote:


Yesterday I was out flying Acro with my instructor and allegedly we
violated Class B airspace.

We were doing three series sequences at 3000 and the Class B floor
where we were was at 4000. The seqeunce consisted of a "Sharks Tooth"
to an "Immelman" followed by a "Spin".

Upon completion of the Sharks Tooth I began to setup for the Immelman.
I started the brisk pull-up and noticed a jet flying above me at a
distance of approximately 1000-1500 ft away. After completing the
manuever, I glanced back to my 6-7 O'clock and saw the jet pass by at
an altitude still slightly above us. This is key, because I am 99%
certain the jet (later on learned it was a G4) was above me. We
proceeded back home and after calling regional approach we are given a
phone number and instructed to call once back on the ground.

My instructor, who by the way is an airshow veteran and has over 24,000
hours under his belt was also certain that we were not above the jet.

We headed over to a local restaurant and called the number. I initially
spoke with the controller. Apparently the jet had called us in and and
he was flying at 4000ft. The controller said that the jet's TCAS
reported us exactly at 4000 and so did the controllers mode C. I tried
to explain to the controller that we were certainly beneath the jet and
given the performance of our aircraft (8KCAB Super Decathlon) it would
not have been possible for us to be above him given the manuveurs were
doing and given our entry altitudes. I handed the phone over to my
instructor and he discussed with the controller for about 10 minutes.
The controller got all my information and said that I would be
receiving a call or a letter in the near future.

I am really concerned about the whole situation and am wondering what
the consequences of this incident could be. Given that I was receiving
dual at the time, who is liable? Also, I truly have a very hard time
believing that we were at 4000. However given that he reported us at
4000 and not 4100 or above, technically if we were in class B, then we
would have only violated it by 1ft. This is obviously a very fine line
and there must be some slight discrepancies in the accuracy of Mode C
altitude encoding capability.

I am not one who does not respect the rules of the FAA and am cognizant
of the importance of Class B and the lives put in jeopardy if class B
airspace is violated. If I would have been flying the manuveurs on my
own, there is no way I would have felt comfortable flying beneath the
class B shelf and normally if I am without my instructor I head out
much farther where I have more room to execute the manuveurs. However,
given that I was instructed to fly the manuveurs there and given that I
relied upon his experience and knowledge, I felt comfortable.

Anyone with any experience in such a situation? What could
realistically happen? What could the worst case scenario be? Am I a
liable or is my flight instructor liable?

Aerobatics in proximity to controlled traffic is not good.
Preoccupation is what gets crews flying into iron clouds.
Your instructor collects more approbation than you it seems.
But disclosing in public also shows a positive safety attitude.

If they shoot you, the remaining troops will presumably be
encouraged to sin no more - to mangle Napoleon's sentiment.

Was there no radio link that could have alerted the controlled
traffic, I wonder? Was there no place else to practice?

All the same, I think they will treat you gently.

Good Luck

Brian