FAR 91.130 and the Definite Article

What controller's failure to comply with .65?

The one that JG is alleging, and which I am accepting for the sake of
argument.

On 8 Feb 2006 14:05:06 -0800, "Mike Granby" wrote:


Concerening arrival and flight through Class C airspace...

91.130(c)(1) Each person must establish two-way radio communications
with the ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services prior to
entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.

Note the use of "THE" in reference to the ATC facility to which one has
to talk. Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class
C airspace? Or just the ATC facility providing services to you at the
time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to
Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand
you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice,
would you be ok, or would you be busted?

Mike,

My recollection, which may be incorrect, is that this was a change from the
original wording specifically designed to ensure that the entering pilot
would be talking with the ATC facility actually controlling the Class C
airspace.

In the original proposal establishing CCA, I don't believe that requirement
was present -- only that the pilot be talking with ATC.

I also seem to recall AOPA being against the change, feeling that if the
pilot was talking with any ATC facility, it should be the responsibility of
that facility to coordinate the CCA entry. AOPA lost that fight.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

My recollection, which may be incorrect, is that this was a change from
the original wording specifically designed to ensure that the entering
pilot would be talking with the ATC facility actually controlling the
Class C
airspace.

In the original proposal establishing CCA, I don't believe that
requirement was present -- only that the pilot be talking with ATC.


Your recollection is correct. This was addressed in responses to comments
received when ARSA/Class C airspace was in the test period. The FAA
addressed it as follows:

"Specifically, aircraft arriving at any airport in an ARSA, and overflying
aircraft, prior to entering the ARSA must: (1) Establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the area; and,
(2) while in the ARSA, maintain two-way radio communication with that ATC
facility."

But when it came time to implement ARSAs nationwide and incorporate them in
the FARs they didn't include that nice, clear language. The original
regulation was:


§ 91.88 Airport Radar Service Areas.

(c) Arrivals and Overflights. No person may operate an aircraft in an
airport radar service area unless two-way radio communication is established
with ATC prior to entering the area and is thereafter maintained with ATC
while within that area.


This language was corrected, I believe during airspace reclassification back
in 1993, to make it clear that contact with any ATC facility did not permit
entry into ARSA/Class C airspace, it had to be with the ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the area.

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:52:48 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
.. .

My recollection, which may be incorrect, is that this was a change from
the original wording specifically designed to ensure that the entering
pilot would be talking with the ATC facility actually controlling the
Class C
airspace.

In the original proposal establishing CCA, I don't believe that
requirement was present -- only that the pilot be talking with ATC.


Your recollection is correct. This was addressed in responses to comments
received when ARSA/Class C airspace was in the test period. The FAA
addressed it as follows:

"Specifically, aircraft arriving at any airport in an ARSA, and overflying
aircraft, prior to entering the ARSA must: (1) Establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the area; and,
(2) while in the ARSA, maintain two-way radio communication with that ATC
facility."

But when it came time to implement ARSAs nationwide and incorporate them in
the FARs they didn't include that nice, clear language. The original
regulation was:


§ 91.88 Airport Radar Service Areas.

(c) Arrivals and Overflights. No person may operate an aircraft in an
airport radar service area unless two-way radio communication is established
with ATC prior to entering the area and is thereafter maintained with ATC
while within that area.


This language was corrected, I believe during airspace reclassification back
in 1993, to make it clear that contact with any ATC facility did not permit
entry into ARSA/Class C airspace, it had to be with the ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the area.


Thanks for confirming my memory of how that unfolded.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Mike Granby" wrote in message
ps.com...

Concerening arrival and flight through Class C airspace...

91.130(c)(1) Each person must establish two-way radio communications
with the ATC facility [...] providing air traffic services prior to
entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those
communications while within that airspace.

Note the use of "THE" in reference to the ATC facility to which one has
to talk. Does this mean THE specific ATC facility controlling the Class
C airspace? Or just the ATC facility providing services to you at the
time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to
Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand
you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice,
would you be ok, or would you be busted?


It means the ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace. Airspace
delegated to approach control facilities tends to be significantly larger
than the Class C airspace contained within it. While Class C airspace has a
radius of ten miles around the airport the airspace "owned" by the TRACON is
probably at least thirty miles radius. If you're still on Center frequency
as you approach a Class C boundary it's because Center forgot about you or
you missed a frequency change.

quote

time? In other words, if you blunder into Class C while talking to
Center on VFR advisories, either perhaps because they forgot to hand
you off or because you wandered off altitude and they didn't notice,
would you be ok, or would you be busted?

It means the ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace. Airspace
delegated to approach control facilities tends to be significantly
larger
than the Class C airspace contained within it. While Class C airspace
has a
radius of ten miles around the airport the airspace "owned" by the
TRACON is
probably at least thirty miles radius. If you're still on Center
frequency
as you approach a Class C boundary it's because Center forgot about you
or
you missed a frequency change
quote

But would he be in violation of 91.130(c)(1) in that scenario?

"John Clonts" wrote in message
oups.com...

It means the ATC facility controlling the Class C airspace. Airspace
delegated to approach control facilities tends to be significantly
larger
than the Class C airspace contained within it. While Class C airspace
has a
radius of ten miles around the airport the airspace "owned" by the
TRACON is
probably at least thirty miles radius. If you're still on Center
frequency
as you approach a Class C boundary it's because Center forgot about you
or
you missed a frequency change
quote

But would he be in violation of 91.130(c)(1) in that scenario?


No, he wouldn't be in violation of FAR 91.130(c)(1) if he was still on
Center frequency as he approached a Class C boundary, he'd be in violation
if he crossed the Class C boundary without first establishing two-way radio
communications with the TRACON.