Commercial rating?

"Michael Ware" wrote in message
...

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:Tf3Pf.116007$QW2.78328@dukeread08...
A commercial pilot with minimum time can be hired by any
plane owner to fly their airplane under part 91, anywhere in
the world, under IFR or VFR. They just can't carry
passengers or cargo "for hire."


They can't? Please explain. §61.133 says you can. I am curious about the
ins
and outs of this myself. And could somebody explain, maybe by example,
what
'holding out' means?

What Jim means is that having a commercial certificate isn't a *sufficient*
condition for carrying passengers or cargo for hire. That's actually
slightly inaccurate, because there are some narrow exceptions, but generally
speaking carriage of passengers or cargo for hire requires not only a
commercial certificate, but compliance with other regulations (Parts 119 and
135, as Bob mentions, are the most common ones to run into, though you could
of course do it under Part 121 as well).

You can't use a Private Pilot certificate to work for a commercial
operation -- you need a Commercial or ATP -- but having a Commercial pilot
certificate is not sufficient to make a commercial operation legal. There
are other rules that need to be complied with as well.

As far as what "holding out" means, the FAA has failed to provide a concrete
definition. However, generally speaking if a pilot demonstrates a
willingness to fly the general public, they are "holding out". A pilot with
a commercial certificate can do very limited passenger or cargo flying for
people with whom they already have an existing relationship, and where they
are not providing the aircraft, but even there anything more than the
occasional contract job is likely to run afoul of an FAA inspector.

Pete

However, generally speaking if a pilot demonstrates a
willingness to fly the general public, they are "holding out".

And getting known for offering to fly people hanging around the airport
fence demonstrates a willingness to fly the general public.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...
And getting known for offering to fly people hanging around the airport
fence demonstrates a willingness to fly the general public.

You keep forgetting the "commercial operation" component of the issue.
Without compensation, there is no holding out as a commercial operation.

(from Peter Duniho)
You keep forgetting the "commercial operation" component of the issue.
Without compensation, there is no holding out as a commercial operation.

Maybe (only maybe) so, but the FAA has rather creative definitions of
"compensation". I would never have considered recording the flight in a
logbook (a history of what actually happened) "compensation", nor does
it seem right that the fact that I can use this experience (which
actually happened) to demonstrate to the FAA that I am worthy of an
advanced rating to be "compensation" either.

(from Jim Macklin)
Any private pilot may offer, on a bulletin board a FREE ride
home. But if you are wanting to share the cost, several
checks are required.
1. The pilot is going anyway, whether anybody else wants to
go.
2. The offer cannot be made as a public offering, but only
to friends.
3. Costs must be shared which means the pilot must pay at
least the pro rata share, your passengers cannot pay all the
costs.

1 and 2 are not enumerated in the FARs. They are made up out of whole
cloth. The FAA can do that and get away with it.

And as for (1), "I am going to fly for three hours =anyway=. Wanna come
with me? I don't care where we go."

Legal? Where in the FARs?

Having made the offer, and having no takers, is it legal to consider the
weather, the condition of the aircraft, and the condition of the pilot,
and decide to not fly?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The FAA lawyers make the rules. For instance, a brand new
private pilot may change a tire, but cannot work on the
brakes on the same wheel.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jose" wrote in message
et...
| (from Peter Duniho)
| You keep forgetting the "commercial operation" component
of the issue.
| Without compensation, there is no holding out as a
commercial operation.
|
| Maybe (only maybe) so, but the FAA has rather creative
definitions of
| "compensation". I would never have considered recording
the flight in a
| logbook (a history of what actually happened)
"compensation", nor does
| it seem right that the fact that I can use this experience
(which
| actually happened) to demonstrate to the FAA that I am
worthy of an
| advanced rating to be "compensation" either.
|
| (from Jim Macklin)
| Any private pilot may offer, on a bulletin board a FREE
ride
| home. But if you are wanting to share the cost, several
| checks are required.
| 1. The pilot is going anyway, whether anybody else wants
to
| go.
| 2. The offer cannot be made as a public offering, but
only
| to friends.
| 3. Costs must be shared which means the pilot must pay
at
| least the pro rata share, your passengers cannot pay all
the
| costs.
|
| 1 and 2 are not enumerated in the FARs. They are made up
out of whole
| cloth. The FAA can do that and get away with it.
|
| And as for (1), "I am going to fly for three hours
=anyway=. Wanna come
| with me? I don't care where we go."
|
| Legal? Where in the FARs?
|
| Having made the offer, and having no takers, is it legal
to consider the
| weather, the condition of the aircraft, and the condition
of the pilot,
| and decide to not fly?
|
| Jose
| --
| Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The FAA lawyers make the rules. For instance, a brand new
private pilot may change a tire, but cannot work on the
brakes on the same wheel.

Yes, but those rules are written down in a place labled "rules", where
we can all see them. The FAA also makes other rules that it keeps to
itself, and trots them out when convenient. Their definition of
"compensation" is one such.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:JktPf.116461$QW2.88175@dukeread08...
The FAA lawyers make the rules. For instance, a brand new
private pilot may change a tire, but cannot work on the
brakes on the same wheel.

My wife and daughter can change a tire on the car, but neither of them could
do a brake job on those cars.

Changing a tire on an airplane requires removal of the brake
assembly, perhaps splitting the wheel halves and installing
the new tire on the old wheel and properly torquring the
wheel bolts. Then the wheel must be installed after packing
the cleaned and inspected wheel bearing.

Changing a tire on an airplane is more like changing the
front hub on a car.

The FAA assumes that all work allowed under the term,
"preventative maintenance" by a private pilot will be done
using the tools, techniques and procedures as a licensed A&P
would use. On my car, I can do just as most oil change
shops do, get under the vehicle, remove the drain plug,
remove the old oil filter, reinstall the drain plug, install
a new oil filter, then pour 4 or 5 quarts of oil in the
engine. An aircraft oil change requires the additional
steps of cleaning oil screens and inspecting for metal and
cutting the old oil filter open and examining the paper for
metal.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:JktPf.116461$QW2.88175@dukeread08...
| The FAA lawyers make the rules. For instance, a brand
new
| private pilot may change a tire, but cannot work on the
| brakes on the same wheel.
|
| My wife and daughter can change a tire on the car, but
neither of them could
| do a brake job on those cars.
|
|
|
|

But an offer of a free ride is different from a $10 ride.


"Jose" wrote in message
...
| However, generally speaking if a pilot demonstrates a
| willingness to fly the general public, they are "holding
out".
|
| And getting known for offering to fly people hanging
around the airport
| fence demonstrates a willingness to fly the general
public.
|
| Jose
| --
| Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.