GPS approach safety case

Google "eurofix" to get a glimpse of the future.

Bob Gardner

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
news:S3Awc.214$SC4.162@newsfe5-win...
10ish years after overlay GPS approaches were introduced in the US, we in
the UK still have no GPS approaches. There must be a considerable body of
evidence collected on accidents, incidents and anomalies over the period
that GPS approaches have been in use. In particular, there may be
evidence
that GPS approaches have improved overall safety in non-precision
approaches.

Any pointers please?

Thanks

Julian Scarfe

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Google "eurofix" to get a glimpse of the future.

Interesting, though it doesn't appear to have been updated for three years
(including the "live" test data)!

Julian

OK, then, go to www.avionicsmagazine.com, June 2004 issue, and see the
future. My point is that within a few years, enhanced loran will be
available when GPS is not.

Bob Gardner

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
news:atLwc.293$%a5.124@newsfe5-win...
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Google "eurofix" to get a glimpse of the future.

Interesting, though it doesn't appear to have been updated for three years
(including the "live" test data)!

Julian

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:22:59 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

OK, then, go to www.avionicsmagazine.com, June 2004 issue, and see the
future. My point is that within a few years, enhanced loran will be
available when GPS is not.

What is enhanced Loran? I've used the old Loran for years and have
developed a healthy distrust of its accuracy. It is handy and easy to
use, but I always want something to prove it's correct.

Multipathing, atmospherics, signal failure, complete loss of
navigation from the loran, 2 miles changes in position when changing
chains, and one time it had me at the wrong airport 20 miles from the
desired one. When I headed for home 2 hours later it still was
figuring I was in the wrong place. About 5 miles after I started
south it did a reset and low and behold, I was not back on course.
:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Bob Gardner

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
news:atLwc.293$%a5.124@newsfe5-win...
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Google "eurofix" to get a glimpse of the future.

Interesting, though it doesn't appear to have been updated for three years
(including the "live" test data)!

Julian

Roger, you and C. J. Campbell are referring to what is now known as legacy
loran. Enhanced loran timing has an accuracy of one nanosecond, compared to
the timers I used when I was in the USCG. New antennas, using the H-field,
have eliminated the effects of precipitation static. New "all-in-view"
receivers work with 30 to 40 stations simultaneously, obviating the need for
the pilot to select chains or be concerned with station geometry. It's a
whole new technology that should not be compared to legacy loran.

Go to http://www.locusinc.com/library/2004ICNS.pdf and you will see the
result of test flights showing the enhanced loran track overlying the GPS
track within a microscrump.

Bob Gardner

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:22:59 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

OK, then, go to www.avionicsmagazine.com, June 2004 issue, and see the
future. My point is that within a few years, enhanced loran will be
available when GPS is not.

What is enhanced Loran? I've used the old Loran for years and have
developed a healthy distrust of its accuracy. It is handy and easy to
use, but I always want something to prove it's correct.

Multipathing, atmospherics, signal failure, complete loss of
navigation from the loran, 2 miles changes in position when changing
chains, and one time it had me at the wrong airport 20 miles from the
desired one. When I headed for home 2 hours later it still was
figuring I was in the wrong place. About 5 miles after I started
south it did a reset and low and behold, I was not back on course.
:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Bob Gardner

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
news:atLwc.293$%a5.124@newsfe5-win...
"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Google "eurofix" to get a glimpse of the future.

Interesting, though it doesn't appear to have been updated for three
years
(including the "live" test data)!

Julian

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news
Roger, you and C. J. Campbell are referring to what is now known as legacy
loran.

Still does not address the issue of cost, though. Why develop an expensive
system the cost of which will be spread across a tiny user base when GPS
works just fine?

In the first place, the motivator is finding a backup for GPS that is
sufficiently removed in frequency and technology that both cannot be jammed;
users world-wide are demanding this. Second, your "small market" argument
fails when you consider the number of industries that are dependent on
timing...the telecommunications industry is one major market. Just read the
references I have given (and I have many more) to get the big picture. Or
Google "loran + gps.

Don't limit your thinking to aviation and maritime uses.

Bob Gardner

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news
Roger, you and C. J. Campbell are referring to what is now known as
legacy
loran.

Still does not address the issue of cost, though. Why develop an expensive
system the cost of which will be spread across a tiny user base when GPS
works just fine?

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
OK, then, go to www.avionicsmagazine.com, June 2004 issue, and see the
future. My point is that within a few years, enhanced loran will be
available when GPS is not.


Loran has too many disadvantages. Its user base is too small. It is the same
problem that we have with all the rest of the aviation navigation system. It
is expensive and targeted too narrowly. GPS can be used by everyone. It is
simple, reliable, and cheap. Taxpayers and their representatives have little
incentive to continue funding an expensive, unreliable navigation
infrastructure that is used by only a tiny minority when that minority
(aviation) can just as easily use GPS just like everybody else.

The only real problem Europeans have with GPS is that it is not European.
Every other complaint they have about it is demonstrably silly.

Interesting, though it doesn't appear to have been updated for three
years
(including the "live" test data)!

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
OK, then, go to www.avionicsmagazine.com, June 2004 issue, and see the
future. My point is that within a few years, enhanced loran will be
available when GPS is not.

Point taken. It seems to be the pages at Delft where Eurofix was developed
that have become stale, and I was a little hasty.

http://www.nels.org/

NW Europe LORAN System, seems to be the best source of info.

The system is still dependent on GPS (or rather, somebody's GNSS). It's yet
another way of doing DGPS.

Julian

Bob Gardner wrote:

OK, then, go to www.avionicsmagazine.com, June 2004 issue, and see the
future. My point is that within a few years, enhanced loran will be
available when GPS is not.

That must be some joke fostered by the LORAN equipment manufacturers.

The high-end stuff that goes oceanic all have triple IRS units, which with
position mix will do far better than any LF "enhanced ADF."