What is Purpose of Sports Class Nationals?

Papa3 wrote:
Lot's of good stuff in there. To summarize the proposal, "Include a
separate Club Class Championship within the Sports Class Nationals with
the World Team selection based on the highest placing Club Class ship."
Sounds okay to me...

Hmmn, I didn't get exactly that out of Tim's post, but I like it!
IIRC, the ill-fated HH SC Nats (again my humble apologies to Tim!) was
also the venue for that year's World Class Nats, with separate scoring
and separate tasks (at least I think the tasking was separate). I
would much prefer a separate scoring system at least, so SC pilots
don't have to look on page 2 (or 3) to see how they are doing ;-).


A couple of comments/questions:

1. Club Class Parameters: Why not just keep it simple and set a
handicap range using the annual CH Handicaps that most closely
resembles the World Club Class list. Something like .95 to 1.1 would
be pretty close (though I'm partial to .925 as the lower limit:-) That
can be adjusted every 2 years if/when the IGC changes their list.

In America, the 2005 handicaps (the latest list I could find) we

Std Cirrus 1.000
LS3 0.953
LS4 0.950
ASW28 0.925
LS8/15 0.925

So, given the current handicap system, allowing 0.925 handicaps would
have the effect of negating the entire idea.

2. Equipment vs. Participation: Despite the fact that I agree with
your proposal, I question the base assumption that a lot of potential
competitors (by that I mean people capable of winning a Club Class
Nationals against top talent) are scared off because people show up
with their V2s and ASW-27s. Maybe I'm in the minority, since I had
no problems showing up for a Standard Class nationals and 15-Meter
nationals with my LS-4 when Discii and ASW-27s ruled the roost. If I
look around Region II (ie. my region) I'm hard-pressed to count more
than a couple of guys who could win a competitive Club Class Nationals.
I've spoken to a couple, and they have explicitly said that it's the
cost of 2 plus weeks at a contest that keeps them away, not the fact
that their ship is mildly uncompetitive. Point being, I doubt that
there's this broad underground of potential Club Class Champions
lurking in the shadows. Plus, there are a LOT of Sports Class
regionals around, and I don't see these being over-subscribed with Club
Class entries either.

Certainly there is no incentive to drive forever and spend $2K or so to
compete in a contest where there is no chance of winning. Who knows
how that would change if there actually was a chance. We won't know
until we try. In any case, the SSA supported a 2006 World Class
Nationals with only 9 gliders present, and I suspect I could get 9 SC
pilots to commit to a meet where they are assured there will be only
?SC gliders in a 0.95 to 1.1 or so range.

Frank wrote:

In America, the 2005 handicaps (the latest list I could find) we

Std Cirrus 1.000
LS3 0.953
LS4 0.950
ASW28 0.925
LS8/15 0.925

So, given the current handicap system, allowing 0.925 handicaps would
have the effect of negating the entire idea.


My .925 quip was tongue-in-cheek; I buried the :-) as part of a
parenthetical. I basically think the floor should be LS4 or maybe
another antique like the ASW-24 (that thrown in as a barb at my friend
JB ) :-)))

Certainly there is no incentive to drive forever and spend $2K or so to
compete in a contest where there is no chance of winning. Who knows
how that would change if there actually was a chance. We won't know
until we try. In any case, the SSA supported a 2006 World Class
Nationals with only 9 gliders present, and I suspect I could get 9 SC
pilots to commit to a meet where they are assured there will be only
?SC gliders in a 0.95 to 1.1 or so range.

I used to be a teaching pro in tennis years back. It was funny how some
guys would always come in and buy the latest racket, have me fiddle
around with new strings, etc. They were sure that "if only" they had
the better equipment, they'd be competitive. Year after year, the
same guys won the championship, no matter what the equipment. We're
all potential champions until we put our talent where our mouth is.
To some extent, I feel the same way about folks that say they don't
come to the Sports Class nationals because they would have no chance of
winning. Try it and see. I mean, if you look back, a well flown
Libelle won in 2005 and a well flown K6 would have won in 2004
(excepting his Day 5 landout, Stevenson had a huge lead at Ionia).
Also, I'll note that I count 10 (of the 27) gliders at Ionia falling
within the sports class range if you include the ASW-24 (otherwise I
think it was 8).

To some extent, my position on participation from this "latent" group
of true Club Class pilots is "I'll believe it when I see it." The
idea of running it within the Sports Class nationals for a couple of
years seems to have a lot of merit.

P3

Papa3 wrote:
Frank wrote:

Year after year, the
same guys won the championship, no matter what the equipment. We're
all potential champions until we put our talent where our mouth is.
To some extent, I feel the same way about folks that say they don't
come to the Sports Class nationals because they would have no chance of
winning. Try it and see. I mean, if you look back, a well flown

To some extent, my position on participation from this "latent" group
of true Club Class pilots is "I'll believe it when I see it." The
idea of running it within the Sports Class nationals for a couple of
years seems to have a lot of merit.

Yes, I agree on both points. No one really knows what will happen if
we try a Club Class Championship within the normal SC Nats, but based
on the popularity of this class in Europe, I for one have high hopes.

IMHO we still need to adjust the U.S. handicapping system to reflect
actual results over the last few years, but maybe that deserves its own
thread ;-).

Frank (X3)

P3

Tim wrote:
X3 and all:


X3 - Thanks for the vote of confidence in considering my SC Nats win a
total "freak". I will agree that it was a contest that favored my
Libelle. However, even in these weak conditions, W3 almost caught me in
his V2 - hardly a "soft" weather ship. And there were a few other weak

Tim,

Thank you very much for taking the time to post such a thoughtful
reply, and please accept my apologies for my poorly worded post. At
the time I felt I had to proactively answer the anticipated reply of
"But look - a Libelle won the HH SC Nats. So, the entry and handicap
system as it stands is OK!". The very weak conditions, IMHO, produced
a minute opening through which you flew your Libelle with great skill
and courage, something I wish I could have done with my LS4. Alas, I
lacked both the skill AND the courage ;-).

Frank(X3)

I would much prefer a Sports Class in America that
resembles the Club Class in Europe. The other posters
to this thread who also support this have stated the
reasons.

My one additional reason: I've had my LS1-d for over
10 years and expect/hope to keep it for many more.
It is a great ship and it's a perfect Club Classer.

Personally, I'm not ready for a Nats. I suck and I
fly too slow. But it would be fun to fly against other
'club classers' at the regional, not just a National.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d 'W8'

The 'Club Class' is popular in the UK and Europe. It
allows you to buy, borrow or hire an elderly low value
glider such as a Libelle or a Standard Cirrus and be
competitive. Actually the UK Club Class Nationals are
usually extremely competitive and normally attract
several current or ex World Champions.

It is good for identifying the best pilots, rather
than those with the deepest pockets.

Handicapped competions only work well if there is a
fairly small handicap range - and the handicaps are
accurate. The Standard Cirrus has been consistently
successful in the Club Class over the years and there
have been some murmerings about its handicap. However
the best pilots chose to fly this type if they can
because of its reputation of success, so there may
be a chicken and egg situation. I am a very average
competition pilot and owning one doesn't seem to help
me very much!

The powers that be seem to be letting more and more
higher performance types into the Club Class. You may
get to a point where it is not worth flying the older
types. If you a flying a Libelle or an Astir, all the
handicap in the World won't help you to glide across
large dead areas, or prevent you from running out of
day attempting a task set to test the pilots of higher
performance gliders.

Derek Copeland

At 11:48 30 June 2006, Frank wrote:

Papa3 wrote:
Frank wrote:

Year after year, the
same guys won the championship, no matter what the
equipment. We're
all potential champions until we put our talent where
our mouth is.
To some extent, I feel the same way about folks that
say they don't
come to the Sports Class nationals because they would
have no chance of
winning. Try it and see. I mean, if you look
back, a well flown

To some extent, my position on participation from
this 'latent' group
of true Club Class pilots is 'I'll believe it when
I see it.' The
idea of running it within the Sports Class nationals
for a couple of
years seems to have a lot of merit.

Yes, I agree on both points. No one really knows what
will happen if
we try a Club Class Championship within the normal
SC Nats, but based
on the popularity of this class in Europe, I for one
have high hopes.

IMHO we still need to adjust the U.S. handicapping
system to reflect
actual results over the last few years, but maybe that
deserves its own
thread ;-).

Frank (X3)

P3

I don't know what Frank would say, but I say 'fly it
in Open Class.'

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
LS1-d



At 17:42 04 July 2006, Mike I Green wrote:
Hi frank,

So where do I fly my Duo in a contest? I tried to
get a 20 m contest
going in the Western US to no avail. Tom Knauff tried
to get one going
a couple of years ago. IMHO the reason that the Duo
wins is that some
guys are just a lot better than I am. I love to fly
and love to fly
contests. With that said, it also needs to be said
that, we really
don't have a Sports Class Nationals, we have a Handicapped
Nationals!
Frank wrote:
Wow - I've certainly come to the right place for informed
responses to
my post! ;-). Replying to all previouis posts:

Thanks to 'gliderstud' (what a handle) and John Seaborn
for the links
to ongoing discussions in this area - I read both
carefully.

I'm still having problems with the stated purpose
for the SC Nats vs
what is actually happening. Here in the U.S. we have
a Std Nats, a 15m
Nats, an Open/18m Nats, a World Class Nats, and the
SC Nats. In 2005,
the number of gliders entered we Std 23, 15m 47,
18m 22, Open 10,
World 13, SC 48. In 2006 so far, the SC Nats hosted
55 and the World
Class hosted 9. My point is, I don't believe there
is any danger in
not havning enough SC pilots and gliders to show up
to make a National
contest field if the high-priced glass is excluded,
and the SSA has
already repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to
support a National
Constest for a relatively small number of entrants.
Regarding the
quality of the competition, I think it would be much
more fun to have a
fighting chance to finish in the top half of the field
than to be
doomed from the start to the (very) low end of the
scale. It is my
personal belief that the reason pure SC pilots *do
not* come to the SC
Nats is because they know they can't possibly win
or even place well
(The Harris HIll SC Nats where Tim McAllister won
in his Libelle was a
freak event - I was there and the weather was terrible
- we set
records for the number of landouts. If the weather
had been at all
reasonable, Tim would probably not have done as well).

In all these contests except the SC Nats, all the
gliders have
essentially the same performance, so it is (in theory)
the best pilot
that wins. In the SC Nats it is essentially impossible
to tell whether
the best pilot or the most expensive glass is most
significant, because
the range of gliders is so broad. In 2005 and 2006,
the best a pure SC
pilot and plane did was 6th overall (Manfred Franke
in 2005 with an
LS-3), and in 2006 about 27th overall (Tim Wells in
a Std Cirrus). In
both years, the SC National Champion was won by a
pilot or pilots in a
Duo Discus, with other high-priced glass close behind.

Why don't we try eliminating the Duo's and the ASW27s
and the ASG-29's
from the equation at the SC Nats, or at least adjust
the handicaps so
their pilots have to fly a lot harder than they do
now to win. Let's
try the experiment. How do we know how many pure
SC pilots & gliders
will show up if we don't try? If it doesn't work,
we can change it
back.

Frank(X3)