Stepping back from ANR

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:59:26 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Jonathan Goodish" wrote

There is zero evidence that ANR does anything to prevent hearing loss
over and above a good passive headset. If you can't cite clinical data
to substantiate such an important claim, it it quite irresponsible to
make such a claim.

Simply because ANR has not been around long enough for any long term studies
to have taken place.

If the total decibel reduction ratings are higher for an ANR unit versus a
passive unit, would that not be a pretty darn good reason to believe that
they will result in less hearing loss?

Agreed. If I find the noise uncomfortable when I turn the ANR
function off that is a good *indication* in its favor.


How about the fact that ANR users report being able to hear com traffic much
more clearly? What happens if you can not hear ATC clearly? Most would

This brings up a memory from some years back. We were getting ready
to depart Muskegon (MI) after spending the afternoon wandering around
while they were getting set up for the Muskegon Air Fair.

We were setting at the hold line waiting for departure when some one
called in. The tower had to ask twice for a repeat, yet with the ANRs
I could hear them clearly. With the ANR function off, I could not
hear the other aircraft at all. I was easily able to relay to the
tower. I was able to hear the other plane clearly while the tower
couldn't. We were no more than half a mile from the tower and on the
ground.

turn up the volume, so they can make the conversation out against the
background noise. The loud com blaring in the ears would be another cause

That is what happened when I flew right seat in the twin. I had to
turn the gain up so high to hear over the noise that it hurt. At that
point I had to tell the pilot he was on his own and I sure wished I
have brought my own headset along.

of hearing loss that is not ever even factored into the decibel ratings of
headsets.

I think that it is just as irresponsible or more irresponsible to make
claims or imply that passive is just as good as ANR, when there are no long
term studies to show that they are equal to the protection that ANR
provides.

When you see the difference is over 10 to 15 db more reduction with
the ANR function turned on I'd think logic would dictate it'd be a no
brainer. OTOH I don't place much faith in advertising figures, but I
do place a lot of faith in what I hear (or rater don't) when I turn
that switch on.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

In article ,
Roger wrote:
I think that it is just as irresponsible or more irresponsible to make
claims or imply that passive is just as good as ANR, when there are no long
term studies to show that they are equal to the protection that ANR
provides.

When you see the difference is over 10 to 15 db more reduction with
the ANR function turned on I'd think logic would dictate it'd be a no
brainer. OTOH I don't place much faith in advertising figures, but I
do place a lot of faith in what I hear (or rater don't) when I turn
that switch on.

Your logic is flawed. Human hearing is most prone to noise-induced
damage at higher frequencies, where ANR has no effect. In fact, in this
regard many passive sets provide more protection.

There have been long-term studies done on hearing protection afforded by
passive devices, which have been proven to significantly reduce the risk
of hearing loss. While I'm not suggesting that ANR devices are worse,
there is no data to suggest that they're better.



JKG

skym wrote:

question is this : I like to hear the engine just a bit since a little
change in the sound or hiccup can signal an upcoming problem of
potentially serious consequence, and gets my attention very fast. How
well do the ANR sets let me hear a little engine sound for peace of
mind?

a heck of a lot better than a passive headset; anything which is not
the usual drone can be heard a lot clearer, and you'll be less likely
to miss it; besides, at the end of a long flight, you'll be less
likely to be tired and more likely to deal with the snag correctly (IMHO
and all that)

--Sylvain

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:05:45 -0700, Sylvain wrote:

skym wrote:

question is this : I like to hear the engine just a bit since a little
change in the sound or hiccup can signal an upcoming problem of
potentially serious consequence, and gets my attention very fast. How
well do the ANR sets let me hear a little engine sound for peace of
mind?

a heck of a lot better than a passive headset; anything which is not
the usual drone can be heard a lot clearer, and you'll be less likely
to miss it; besides, at the end of a long flight, you'll be less
likely to be tired and more likely to deal with the snag correctly (IMHO
and all that)

Well, I'll admit my Telex set is one of the very early ANRs. By the
end of a 5 1/4 hour flight I had two handkerchiefs wrapped around that
thick head band, but still had two groves across the top of my head
that were getting pretty tender. They are a wee bit heavier than
today's crop. :-))

We had been to visit my son in Georgia and stopped at Sporty's on the
way back. They loaded me up with head sets, I took them out to the
Deb and tried them in the plane one-at-a-time with the engine running.
Back then the Telex, which I purchased, seemed to be the most
effective.



--Sylvain
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Skym,

How
well do the ANR sets let me hear a little engine sound for peace of
mind?

Very. It's a total non-issue, a made-up argument by headset companies
back when they didn't have an ANR model in their line-up, and by old
cots not liking any change.

The cost of a decent ANR set is significantly more than a very
good passive set,

Not really. In fact, not at all. Let's say a "very good passive set" is
of the DC brand (I couldn't agree less, but...). That will set you
back, what, 400, 500 bucks? For that, you'll be the proud owner of a
Lightspeed 20XLc and have a 100-$-burger left. Go with a QFR XCc (or
one of its pilot shop branded cousins) and you'll have two of those
burgers left.

"ANR is way more expensive" is just as much of a myth as "You can't
hear the engine quitting with ANR".

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:18:09 +0200, Thomas Borchert
wrote:

Skym,

How
well do the ANR sets let me hear a little engine sound for peace of
mind?

Very. It's a total non-issue, a made-up argument by headset companies
back when they didn't have an ANR model in their line-up, and by old
cots not liking any change.

The cost of a decent ANR set is significantly more than a very
good passive set,

Not really. In fact, not at all. Let's say a "very good passive set" is
of the DC brand (I couldn't agree less, but...). That will set you
back, what, 400, 500 bucks? For that, you'll be the proud owner of a
Lightspeed 20XLc and have a 100-$-burger left. Go with a QFR XCc (or
one of its pilot shop branded cousins) and you'll have two of those
burgers left.

"ANR is way more expensive" is just as much of a myth as "You can't
hear the engine quitting with ANR".

ANR is one of those areas where you can get a good set for about the
same or less than a top of the line passive set or spend as much or
more than you want. Try, then buy, but don't buy with out trying.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:19:11 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:18:09 +0200, Thomas Borchert
wrote:

Skym,

How
well do the ANR sets let me hear a little engine sound for peace of
mind?

Very. It's a total non-issue, a made-up argument by headset companies
back when they didn't have an ANR model in their line-up, and by old
cots not liking any change.

The cost of a decent ANR set is significantly more than a very
good passive set,

Not really. In fact, not at all. Let's say a "very good passive set" is
of the DC brand (I couldn't agree less, but...). That will set you
back, what, 400, 500 bucks? For that, you'll be the proud owner of a
Lightspeed 20XLc and have a 100-$-burger left. Go with a QFR XCc (or
one of its pilot shop branded cousins) and you'll have two of those
burgers left.

"ANR is way more expensive" is just as much of a myth as "You can't
hear the engine quitting with ANR".

ANR is one of those areas where you can get a good set for about the
same or less than a top of the line passive set or spend as much or
more than you want. Try, then buy, but don't buy with out trying.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I've been looking at headsets recently and came to the conclusion that
the QFR XCC clone is a good compromise at $240. Compared to other ANR
headsets it has some of the highest passive attenuation though only
~10db electronic. If the electronics fail it should still be very
good.

By the way Roger you mentioned in a previous post that 3db was
half/double. I think you're still thinking of power not volts.
I assume ANR refers to volts so think 6db = half/double, or am I
getting rusty with all this?

David

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 18:22:41 +0100, wrote:

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:19:11 -0400, Roger
wrote:

snip

I've been looking at headsets recently and came to the conclusion that
the QFR XCC clone is a good compromise at $240. Compared to other ANR
headsets it has some of the highest passive attenuation though only
~10db electronic. If the electronics fail it should still be very
good.

By the way Roger you mentioned in a previous post that 3db was
half/double. I think you're still thinking of power not volts.
I assume ANR refers to volts so think 6db = half/double, or am I
getting rusty with all this?

Sound (and our hearing) is logarithmic so I'm pretty sure that the 3
db holds for sound as it does for power.




David
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:25:05 -0400, "Roger (K8RI)"
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 18:22:41 +0100, wrote:

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:19:11 -0400, Roger
wrote:

snip

I've been looking at headsets recently and came to the conclusion that
the QFR XCC clone is a good compromise at $240. Compared to other ANR
headsets it has some of the highest passive attenuation though only
~10db electronic. If the electronics fail it should still be very
good.

By the way Roger you mentioned in a previous post that 3db was
half/double. I think you're still thinking of power not volts.
I assume ANR refers to volts so think 6db = half/double, or am I
getting rusty with all this?

Sound (and our hearing) is logarithmic so I'm pretty sure that the 3
db holds for sound as it does for power.




David
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger, now you've got me thinking:-) As you say it's logarithmic but
if I'm not mistaken 10w to 100w =10dbw, 10v to 20v = 20dbv. I don't
know how ANR is measured so I'm guessing dba but it looks like double
= 6db. In an expample I found on the web and you compare say the Rifle
& Threshold of Pain there's 6db difference. That would suggest
headphones with say 26db passive attenuation would reduce the sound
level by a factor of 40. If you use 3db then it would be a factor well
over 500 which I think would be unrealistic.

Source of sound Sound pressure Sound pressure level
pascal dB re 20 µPa
=============================================
Rifle being fired at 1 m: 200 Pa = 140 dB
Threshold of pain: 100 Pa = 134 dB
Hearing damage during short term effect: 20 Pa = approx. 120 dB
Jet, 100 m distant: 6 – 200 Pa = 110 – 140 dB
Jack hammer, 1 m distant / discotheque: 2 Pa approx. 100 dB
Hearing damage during long-term effect: 6×10-1 Pa = approx. 90 dB

David (GM3RFA)