joining the traffic pattern quandary

So if a RIGHT turn is permitted by the FARs onto downwind, then so
must a RIGHT turn onto final (where left traffic in effect).Hence the
quandary

There is no quandary.

The 45 right-turn entry into downwind is recommended by the AIM and
would not be so if it had ever been held to be illegal.

Once in the pattern, left turns are mandatory unless the stated ground
signals exist, if it's an untowered airport.

What's so hard about this?

then I could do a 90 degree right turn onto short final,
where left pattern is in effect.

No, you couldn't. Pilots have been violated for this and it has been
upheld by the NTSB. You would have to intercept final at a
"considerable" distance from the runway in order to not be "in the
pattern." The distance depends on what type of airplane you're
flying.

Let me make sure I understand this. The FAA wrote the rules, and the FAA
wrote the AIM. Therefore, the FAA must have determined that which is in the
AIM complied with the rules... until the FAA changes it's mind. So sayeth
the FAA. :-)

My understanding is that all of this "advisory" literature (the AIM, the
Advisory Circulars, etc.) are supposed to advise you of a way (but not,
necessarily, the only way) to comply with the regulations. I know of cases
where people have been hauled in for "violations" only to be let off because
they pointed out an advisory that explicitly said that they could do what
they were accused of.

All that being said, I still think the Canadian method (mid-field
crosswinds) is better.

Just my two cents.

-Rob
"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
So if a RIGHT turn is permitted by the FARs onto downwind, then so
must a RIGHT turn onto final (where left traffic in effect).Hence the
quandary

There is no quandary.

The 45 right-turn entry into downwind is recommended by the AIM and
would not be so if it had ever been held to be illegal.

Once in the pattern, left turns are mandatory unless the stated ground
signals exist, if it's an untowered airport.

What's so hard about this?

then I could do a 90 degree right turn onto short final,
where left pattern is in effect.

No, you couldn't. Pilots have been violated for this and it has been
upheld by the NTSB. You would have to intercept final at a
"considerable" distance from the runway in order to not be "in the
pattern." The distance depends on what type of airplane you're
flying.

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:14:57 -0500, "Rob Montgomery"
wrote:

Let me make sure I understand this. The FAA wrote the rules, and the FAA
wrote the AIM. Therefore, the FAA must have determined that which is in the
AIM complied with the rules... until the FAA changes it's mind. So sayeth
the FAA. :-)


Or, more precisely, one hand of the FAA wrote the rules, while another
hand of the FAA wrote the AIM, and sometimes, the left hand doesn't
know what the right hand is doing.

"Rob Montgomery" wrote in message
...

Let me make sure I understand this. The FAA wrote the rules, and the FAA
wrote the AIM. Therefore, the FAA must have determined that which is in
the AIM complied with the rules... until the FAA changes it's mind. So
sayeth the FAA. :-)


The 45 degree turn to downwind violates the letter of the law regardless
what the FAA sayeth.

Greg, Gene, Roy, Steven, or anyone out the

Is there a database or such anywhere that lists the violations that
have occurred over the past month, or year, or 10 years?

I've heard plenty that "others have been violated for that" , or "you
can get violated for that", over such items as:

"incorrectly entering the circuit"
"landing below vis limits, but not below rvr limits"
"departing without required obstacle clearance gradients"
"not having a weight and balance prepared"

Now before Steven or others join in to tell me the above are not
violations of the FARs, I've just said that that is what I've "read".
Mostly news group.

And thus I ask, any list of violations that one can peruse, or web
site that lists enforcement actions, that we can use as a guide as to
what the FAA is really enforcing?

Stan

been regulations that those who were found to be in violationOn Tue,
04 Jan 2005 13:52:55 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:



then I could do a 90 degree right turn onto short final,
where left pattern is in effect.

No, you couldn't. Pilots have been violated for this and it has been
upheld by the NTSB.

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 12:33:59 GMT, wrote:

And thus I ask, any list of violations that one can peruse, or web
site that lists enforcement actions, that we can use as a guide as to
what the FAA is really enforcing?

Stan


This newsgroup has a wealth of experienced pilots.

I would be interested to know how many are personally acquainted with
another pilot, or have themselves been involved in some kind of
enforcement action, be it revocation, suspension, fine, or simply
remedial action.

I'm talking here about personal experience, not 2nd or 3rd hand
accounts of some infraction, or some news account or ng story.

First hand accounts only, please, your own or personally acquainted
with another pilot actually involved.

In article ,
wrote:

Thanks, Roy
As I've just posted to Bob, if "approaching to land" means "already in
the pattern", then I could do a 90 degree right turn onto short final,
where left pattern is in effect.

So if a RIGHT turn is permitted by the FARs onto downwind, then so
must a RIGHT turn onto final (where left traffic in effect).

Hence the quandary

Well, like I said, you need to apply common sense. Somebody just posted
about this instrument approach:

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://...00379LDBCA.PDF

Let's say you're coming in from San Marcus. What are you supposed to do
when you reach KOAKS? You make a (gasp) right turn onto final. Surely
you're "approaching to land", since you're flying an approach procedure.
Are you going to worry that the runway may have a left traffic pattern and
therefore 91.126 won't let you make a right turn? Of course not.

You need to apply common sense. If you're going to look for
inconsistencies and stupidities in the FARs, you'll spend your whole life
getting hung up on stuff like this.

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
wrote:


Thanks, Roy
As I've just posted to Bob, if "approaching to land" means "already in
the pattern", then I could do a 90 degree right turn onto short final,
where left pattern is in effect.

So if a RIGHT turn is permitted by the FARs onto downwind, then so
must a RIGHT turn onto final (where left traffic in effect).

Hence the quandary


Well, like I said, you need to apply common sense. Somebody just posted
about this instrument approach:

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://...00379LDBCA.PDF

Let's say you're coming in from San Marcus. What are you supposed to do
when you reach KOAKS? You make a (gasp) right turn onto final. Surely
you're "approaching to land", since you're flying an approach procedure.
Are you going to worry that the runway may have a left traffic pattern and
therefore 91.126 won't let you make a right turn? Of course not.

You need to apply common sense. If you're going to look for
inconsistencies and stupidities in the FARs, you'll spend your whole life
getting hung up on stuff like this.

Well said, Roy. Experience brings confidence and judgment. Reliance
on rigid reading of laws is just the start.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Well, like I said, you need to apply common sense. Somebody just posted
about this instrument approach:

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://...00379LDBCA.PDF

Let's say you're coming in from San Marcus. What are you supposed to do
when you reach KOAKS? You make a (gasp) right turn onto final. Surely
you're "approaching to land", since you're flying an approach procedure.
Are you going to worry that the runway may have a left traffic pattern and
therefore 91.126 won't let you make a right turn? Of course not.

You need to apply common sense. If you're going to look for
inconsistencies and stupidities in the FARs, you'll spend your whole life
getting hung up on stuff like this.


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating
an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area
must comply with the requirements of this section.


If an IAP requires a right turn to the final approach course you're clearly
"otherwise authorized or required".

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating
an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area
must comply with the requirements of this section.


If an IAP requires a right turn to the final approach course you're clearly
"otherwise authorized or required".

True enough. And making a right turn from the 45 to left downwind is
just as clearly required.