Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

Andrew Gideon wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:51:54 -0400, Dave Butler wrote:


I think Steven said it best (paraphrasing): don't ask, just tell them
you're terminating radar services.


Yes, but...

I was on flight following on Friday, and said I was going lower (as I was
approaching my destination). The controller suggested I delay my descent
for arrivals. I could have descended anyway, but what's the point of VFR
advisories if one ignores the advice?

I didn't say you shouldn't ever accept advice from controllers. I was
responding to a situation postulated by the OP.

DGB

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
news

I was on flight following on Friday, and said I was going lower (as I was
approaching my destination). The controller suggested I delay my descent
for arrivals. I could have descended anyway, but what's the point of VFR
advisories if one ignores the advice?


To help spot traffic.

On 2006-10-27, wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree
I was testing the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably
vector VFR aircraft outside

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

Since that's not as annoying as a vector I've never had cause to challenge
them. And they've been nice to me while inside their airspace, too.

*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I
reponded, "NXXXX would like to terminate radar services." I never
received the "radar service terminated, squawk 1200," so I inquired
as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to terminate. The
controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the

Yeah, I'm not surprised that their overriding goal is to keep an eye
on you. I wonder what was going on during that pause.

to find the official regs as far as flight following goes.

When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
to ATC at all, but happen to be...

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
...

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

Since that's not as annoying as a vector I've never had cause to challenge
them. And they've been nice to me while inside their airspace, too.


What do you consider to be "their airspace"?



When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
to ATC at all, but happen to be...


Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

On 2006-10-27, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
...

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

What do you consider to be "their airspace"?

I may have been in their "outer area". It's funny this should come up,
because I recall that a question about the class C outer area is the only
one I missed on the private written.

When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions".

Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

Are you referring to:

Pilot participation is voluntary within the outer area and can
be discontinued, within the outer area, at the pilot's request.
Class C services will be provided in the outer area unless the
pilot requests termination of the service.

But I'm referring to FAR 91.123(b):

Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft
contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic
control is exercised.

So the question remains: If ATC issues me an instruction when I'm
speaking to them voluntarily (so 91.123(a) does not apply becuase
I'm not operating under a clearance), am I stuck with that instruction?

The closest I can find is in 708 7-8-5(b) re Altitude Assignments:
http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html

Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to 14 CFR Section
91.159 shall be advised to resume altitudes appropriate for the
direction of flight when the altitude is no longer needed for
separation, when leaving the outer area, or when terminating
Class C service.

I suppose that means that I *do* have to obey ATC, but they have to drop
the altitude restriction if I cancel. So from that I infer that if you
get a vector you don't like while in the outer area, a "cancel flight
following" should result in "resume own nav".

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
...

I may have been in their "outer area". It's funny this should come up,
because I recall that a question about the class C outer area is the only
one I missed on the private written.


The charted Class C airspace would be just a fraction of the controlled
airspace delegated to Portland approach.



Are you referring to:

Pilot participation is voluntary within the outer area and can
be discontinued, within the outer area, at the pilot's request.
Class C services will be provided in the outer area unless the
pilot requests termination of the service.

But I'm referring to FAR 91.123(b):

Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft
contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic
control is exercised.


You're assuming that the regulation was intended to include instructions
that ATC is not authorized to issue. I think that unlikely.



So the question remains: If ATC issues me an instruction when I'm
speaking to them voluntarily (so 91.123(a) does not apply becuase
I'm not operating under a clearance), am I stuck with that instruction?


No.



The closest I can find is in 708 7-8-5(b) re Altitude Assignments:
http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0708.html

Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to 14 CFR Section
91.159 shall be advised to resume altitudes appropriate for the
direction of flight when the altitude is no longer needed for
separation, when leaving the outer area, or when terminating
Class C service.

I suppose that means that I *do* have to obey ATC, but they have to drop
the altitude restriction if I cancel. So from that I infer that if you
get a vector you don't like while in the outer area, a "cancel flight
following" should result in "resume own nav".


Bingo.

:
: When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
: ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
: to ATC at all, but happen to be...
:

: Doesn't anyone read the AIM anymore?

: http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap3/aim0302.html#3-2-4

Since I didn't (nor had no intention to) enter the Charlie, all I see that is relevant is:

d. Air Traffic Services. When two-way radio communications and radar contact are established, all participating VFR
aircraft a

1. Sequenced to the primary airport.

2. Provided Class C services within the Class C airspace and the outer area.

3. Provided basic radar services beyond the outer area on a workload permitting basis. This can be terminated by the
controller if workload dictates.

Once I stated, "I would like to terminate radar services," part d.2. is no longer relevant since I am no longer
participating.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

Since I didn't (nor had no intention to) enter the Charlie, all I
see that is relevant is:

d. Air Traffic Services. When two-way radio communications and radar
contact are established, all participating VFR
aircraft a

1. Sequenced to the primary airport.

2. Provided Class C services within the Class C airspace and the outer
area.

3. Provided basic radar services beyond the outer area on a workload
permitting basis. This can be terminated by the
controller if workload dictates.

Once I stated, "I would like to terminate radar services," part
d.2. is no longer relevant since I am no longer
participating.


Exactly. Reading the relevant parts of the AIM would preclude wondering
what the rules are when given altitude restrictions while talking to
approach control above the Class C airspace.

: Once I stated, "I would like to terminate radar services," part
: d.2. is no longer relevant since I am no longer
: participating.
:

: Exactly. Reading the relevant parts of the AIM would preclude wondering
: what the rules are when given altitude restrictions while talking to
: approach control above the Class C airspace.

My own issue was in the termination part. When I told them I wanted to terminate radar services, the request
was ignored. When I inquired again whether he'd heard my request, he "denied" it by saying he was going to "keep me
with him until west of the airport."

That's why I was trying to find some sort of rules defining this situation. I guess as the pilot outside the
Charlie, I should have simply said, "Terminating radar services, squaking 1200, will remain clear the Charlie." I
didn't quite think of that at the time however.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

I have had good luck with Flight Following but am pretty touchy on
being given vectors just to ease the controllers duties. I most always
cancel flight following, dial in 1200 and remind them there has NEVER
been a controller killed in a midair, it is always the pilots in
command. After all,, they work for us, not the other way around.

Ben
KJAC.
Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2006-10-27, wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree
I was testing the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably
vector VFR aircraft outside

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

Since that's not as annoying as a vector I've never had cause to challenge
them. And they've been nice to me while inside their airspace, too.

*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I
reponded, "NXXXX would like to terminate radar services." I never
received the "radar service terminated, squawk 1200," so I inquired
as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to terminate. The
controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the

Yeah, I'm not surprised that their overriding goal is to keep an eye
on you. I wonder what was going on during that pause.

to find the official regs as far as flight following goes.

When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
to ATC at all, but happen to be...

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/