Married Couples and CRM (followon to Courious Crash)

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Being a married man, you of course considered your wife's punishment
first.
Is this a case of the known verses the possible outcome?
Would this be a fate worse than death? :-))

Actually, the "known" in this case isn't the collision but the yard work.
The "possible outcome" would be the 747.
Hell, I might have had at least a SHOT at missing the 747............but not
listening to my wife....................In math, we call that a " result
constant". :-)))
DH

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left
immediately to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards
directly ahead of me on a collision course at co altitude and my wife
sitting next to me who is non rated told me at the exact same instant
to continue flying straight on, by the time common sense and a deep
primal fear (both associated with the ramifications of increased yard
work that would most certainly be the result if I ignored my wife)
passed through my thought process, we would have hit the 747 and the
point of the initial poster's question would then be moot.

Sorry, but being killed is no excuse from yard work!

(Just came in from a couple hours of said yard work. Raking is a great way
to burn off the calories from all the holiday cookies and other goodies
that appear this time of year! ;-))

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
This having been said, if ATC was screaming at me to turn left
immediately to avoid a 747 that I could actually see 500 yards
directly ahead of me on a collision course at co altitude and my wife
sitting next to me who is non rated told me at the exact same instant
to continue flying straight on, by the time common sense and a deep
primal fear (both associated with the ramifications of increased yard
work that would most certainly be the result if I ignored my wife)
passed through my thought process, we would have hit the 747 and the
point of the initial poster's question would then be moot.

Sorry, but being killed is no excuse from yard work!

Exactly what my wife said !


(Just came in from a couple hours of said yard work. Raking is a great way
to burn off the calories from all the holiday cookies and other goodies
that appear this time of year! ;-))

We spent the whole day making oatmeal cookies for the annual family
Christmas get together (and wrapping paper fight). From the looks of what we
put into that food processor bowl to make those things, I'll be walking it
off for the next year!!
Dudley Henriques

What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

I have no idea. Mary and I operate like yin and yang, left brain/right
brain, leaving little room (we hope) for error. How two pilots,
spouses, no less, could press a bad situation is beyond me.

(Of course, has anyone determined for sure that there was a situation
badly pressed in this recent accident?)

Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?

Not exactly. We each have our own methods of pre-flight and
pre-landing check-lists, and we both keep a watchful eye on the other,
making sure that no items are overlooked. I don't speak up unless
something is obviously out of place, however.

The only time we use a call-out system is on the takeoff roll, when the
stakes are highest. The copilot's call-outs a

1. "Six good bars" (meaning that our JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer is
showing all six cylinders functioning properly)

2. "Manifold pressure good"

3. "RPMs good"

4. "Airspeed's alive"

If any one of these four parameters aren't met to our satisfaction, we
will abort the takeoff. By doing it this way, the pilot can keep his
eyes on the runway, instead of down inside the plane.

If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?

As a VFR pilot with IFR training (but no IR), my minimums are somewhat
lower than Mary's. (She has had no IFR training since her Private.)
Thus, occasionally she will express concern that the ceiling is coming
down, or visibility is getting lower than her comfort level.

We will have a brief discussion (if I'm flying), or we will land
immediately (if she's flying). There has only been one occasion (in 12
years) where I pressed on when she really wanted to land, and I have
regretted it ever since...if you know what I mean... ;-)

Does one or the other have overriding veto?

Nope. We both have an equal say in the cockpit -- but we also know
that the copilot NEVER takes control of the plane unless they feel
their lives are directly threatened. This has also only happened once
(when I saw a plane on a collision course coming in from our 8 o'clock
position, and pushed the yoke down without warning) in 12 years.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 19 Dec 2006 15:22:33 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

I have no idea. Mary and I operate like yin and yang, left brain/right
brain, leaving little room (we hope) for error. How two pilots,
spouses, no less, could press a bad situation is beyond me.

(Of course, has anyone determined for sure that there was a situation
badly pressed in this recent accident?)

Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?

Not exactly. We each have our own methods of pre-flight and
pre-landing check-lists, and we both keep a watchful eye on the other,
making sure that no items are overlooked. I don't speak up unless
something is obviously out of place, however.

The only time we use a call-out system is on the takeoff roll, when the
stakes are highest. The copilot's call-outs a

My wife doesn't pilot and our's is rather simple inside.
However I'd think the husband and wife pilots would operate, or should
operate like any two rate pilots in front. One is PIC the other is
helper, but safety from any quarter takes precedence and input from
either seat should be evaluated.

1. "Six good bars" (meaning that our JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer is
showing all six cylinders functioning properly)

Bars? Analyzer?

Engine is running!

2. "Manifold pressure good"

Runway lights are moving by.

3. "RPMs good"
Revolutions per minutes?

Engine got louder


4. "Airspeed's alive"

Runway lights are moving faster.


If any one of these four parameters aren't met to our satisfaction, we
will abort the takeoff. By doing it this way, the pilot can keep his
eyes on the runway, instead of down inside the plane.

Looking down on take off?

IRL I check MP, oil pressure, and RPM after applying full power.
I don't look back in except to check speed just before rotation which
should happen about 800 feet down the runway. If it don't I don't.
The next look at the gages is when I do the power reduction. All the
rest is by sound and feel.

It wouldn't matter if God were in the right seat, but if I hear "Dear,
I need to use the bathroom", or "I forgot to take the Dramamine" we're
landing" as long as there's at least a couple hundred feet of runway
left.


If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?

As a VFR pilot with IFR training (but no IR), my minimums are somewhat
lower than Mary's. (She has had no IFR training since her Private.)
Thus, occasionally she will express concern that the ceiling is coming
down, or visibility is getting lower than her comfort level.

We will have a brief discussion (if I'm flying), or we will land
immediately (if she's flying). There has only been one occasion (in 12
years) where I pressed on when she really wanted to land, and I have
regretted it ever since...if you know what I mean... ;-)

Does one or the other have overriding veto?

Nope. We both have an equal say in the cockpit -- but we also know
that the copilot NEVER takes control of the plane unless they feel

I once had a close encounter. Very close encounter on the VOR to MOP.
I was under the hood and of course the instructor was not. Instead of
grabbing the yoke, he hollered pull up and I instinctively shoved the
throttle in as I stood it on end or nearly so. He had not even
finished the "up" and we were pulling "Gs". We might have bent the 30
degrees in pitch rule more than a little. As the airspeed came down I
eased the nose down. We missed the other plane by inches according to
what I heard from others later. He'd never tell me how close it was.

With two people of the same capabilities flying the same plane it'd
be a different situation. OTOH I'd holler first and react only if the
pilot didn't.

One day we (instructor and I - not the same CFII as above) were out
doing some instrument work. He was checking the instruments out and
started to ask me a question just as ATC came on with some
instructions. I raised my hand to signal quite! Unfortunately I raised
it rather quickly and he was leaning forward. He commented later that
he would never, ever touch anything in the Deb without first saying he
was going to do so. I had hit him right in the snot box and it was not
a gentle tap. Fortunately he knew it was not on purpose and we still
fly together.

_Boy_an_I_glad_ that_wasn't_Joyce!

their lives are directly threatened. This has also only happened once
(when I saw a plane on a collision course coming in from our 8 o'clock
position, and pushed the yoke down without warning) in 12 years.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"john smith" wrote in message
...
What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
and response type of CRM when they fly together?
What type of resolution do they use?
If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?
Does one or the other have overriding veto?


Just some anecdotal info:

At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known Husband/Wife
flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them. As
they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the sense
that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple solution:
The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.

Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged CRM
meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they have
learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as they
fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you too
far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as PIC
but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
difference for them.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL-FS (Flightless Spouse)
Chandler, AZ

What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge
and response type of CRM when they fly together?
What type of resolution do they use?
If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?
Does one or the other have overriding veto?


Just some anecdotal info:

At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known
Husband/Wife
flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them.
As
they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the
sense
that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple
solution:
The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.

Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged CRM
meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they
have
learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as
they
fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you too
far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as
PIC
but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
difference for them.

This was also revisited in the September 2006 issue of AOPA Pilot.

Peter

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:50 -0800, Jay Beckman wrote
(in article ):

"john smith" wrote in message
...
What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a challenge
and response type of CRM when they fly together?
What type of resolution do they use?
If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?
Does one or the other have overriding veto?


Just some anecdotal info:

At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known Husband/Wife
flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them. As
they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the sense
that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple solution:
The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.

Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged CRM
meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they have
learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as they
fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you too
far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as PIC
but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
difference for them.

They also have another rule that works very well for them: most chicken pilot
wins. If one does not want to go, they don't go.

"Christopher Campbell" wrote in message
e.com...
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:50 -0800, Jay Beckman wrote
(in article ):

"john smith" wrote in message
...
What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge
and response type of CRM when they fly together?
What type of resolution do they use?
If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?
Does one or the other have overriding veto?


Just some anecdotal info:

At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known
Husband/Wife
flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them.
As
they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the
sense
that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple
solution:
The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.

Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged
CRM
meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they
have
learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as
they
fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you
too
far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as
PIC
but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
difference for them.

They also have another rule that works very well for them: most chicken
pilot
wins. If one does not want to go, they don't go.

And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
8000, 8 it is. On the localizer, she'll occaisionally say something like:
"Ah, Bracketing" as I start a my third turn toward the needle.

Al G

Um, that would be 7000 and 9000 (3000 AGL) wouldn't it?

Jim


And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
8000, 8 it is. On the localizer, she'll occaisionally say something like:
"Ah, Bracketing" as I start a my third turn toward the needle.

Al G