The prisoners of Rabaul (Was: P-39's, zeros, etc.)

From: tomcervo@aol


There are probably some people still working with the Martin Caiden book
Ragged
Rugged Warriors--check the bibliography and adjust your respect accordingly.

I don't see that book in their biblio, but they do list Walter D. Edmonds They
Fought With What They Had. Edmonds was a popular novelist (Drums Along the
Mohawk), not a historian, and he wrote a story with an eye to narrative
excitement rather than strick accuracy. I believe Edmonds wrote, or partly
wrote, the script for that old movie "Air Force" about the B-17s flying out to
Hawaii and the PI just as the Japs bomb Pearl Harbor.

I suppose the official USAAF histories remain the most reliable, although they
have a touching belief that orders and official documents actually have some
bearing on reality.


Chris Mark

From: tomcervo@

There are probably some people still working with the Martin Caiden book
Ragged
Rugged Warriors--check the bibliography and adjust your respect accordingly.

On looking closer I see that Bloody Shambles does indeed include the Caiden
book in its bibliography--a bibliography arranged alphabetically not by author
but by book title, curiously including indefinite article--but not definite
article. Thus the first book listed is "A Flying Tiger's Diary" by Bond
followed by "A Mouse in My Pocket" by Everard and only then "Army Air Forces in
WWII, The," by Craven and Cate The penultimate book is "You'll Die in
Singapore" by McCormac.
The last book is "70 Days in Singapore" by Faulk, listed last, I guess because
the title has a numeral in it--?
Then in the text of the book they have things like "Lt. Roland S. Barnick, who
later wrote: 'Blah blah blah...'" without any footnote or other reference, so
you don't know the source. Turning to the biblio, even if he is the author of
a book they cite, you can't just run down the list. You have to look at each
title individually until you find his name--which I couldn't. So you have no
idea at all what credence to lend to this quote. And you have no way, if you
want more info, to go to the source.

As far as the japanese info, assuming it is accurate, it is interesting--as far
as it goes. i was interested to learn how the japs had had to pull air
resources out of southeast Asia to smash bataan, evening bringing in the big
Sally army bombers. I was even more interested to know how badly hurt they had
been by AAA from the Bataan defenders. But when I wondered what unit with what
weaponry were doing this damage, the text was silent. I also wondered what
altitude the Sallys were bombing from, and if the Jap experience with US Army
AAA at Bataan influenced them to fly at 22,000 feet over port moresby, greatly
reducing their effectiveness, that being ironic because there was no AAA at
Moresby. I was also interested to learn that the Japs bombed the dug in troops
on Bataan with 50kg bombs, and I wondered what genius had decided on that. The
text, of course was silent, the authors not apparently being aware that this
was a futile exercise that almost certainly caused little or no casualties or
damage--but at the cost, according to the text, of a number of "badly damaged"
bombers.
On the subject of the B-17/B-25 raid they include the story that 5 of the B-25s
were sent to a satelite field 40 miles away. True, but not the truth. Because
these five bombers, when they got to Valencia Field, were refused fuel. The
people there were expecting fighter reinforcements to come up from Australia
and they were not about to let some transient bombers suck up their precious
stock. So the B-25s had to head to No.3 (the second take off--in a short
period--without rest since completing their 10-hour hop from Australia; these
guys were beat, and ****ed off, being ordered all over the damned island in
what looked like a classic cluster ****), getting in just as darkness fell, a
pretty close call, the field having no lights. Then the ground crews worked
all night hauling gas in drums up from No. 1 to get them fueled up, not to
mention pulling out their long-range tanks and getting them bombed up, doing
engine service, etc.

I suppose i am beating this to death, but I had high hopes for these expensive
volumes and it looks like the usual rehash, at least as far as US operations
go.

Some questions I would still like to know the answers to:
Why were the 19th BG ground crews at No.3 Del Monte? When did they get there?
Did they ever get out of the PI? What happened to these tired, hungry,
hardworking, apprehensive guys who were promised that they would be picked up
before the Japs got to them?
I would also like to know what actual damage the B-25s did on their raids. BS
only reports the optimistic "believed to have been sunk" reports of the
contemporary press releases and has nothing from any Japanese sources. BS also
doesn't mention the first day attacks on Jap air assets, only the attacks on
shipping.


Chris Mark

On looking closer I see that Bloody Shambles does indeed include the Caiden
book in its bibliography--a bibliography arranged alphabetically not by author

The British may not be as aware of his reputation for fictionalizing.
Caidin is likewise cited in the new book from Grub Street: Buffaloes
Over Singapore
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...f=nosim/annals

The last book is "70 Days in Singapore" by Faulk, listed last, I guess because
the title has a numeral in it--?

The usual rule (at least in the U.S.) is to put numbers first!

As far as the japanese info, assuming it is accurate, it is interesting--as far

It's as accurate as can be done with the sources available. The
Japanese stuff was provided by a Dr Izawa, who is an aviation buff who
has written several books about the Japanese Army Air Force.

as it goes. i was interested to learn how the japs had had to pull air
resources out of southeast Asia to smash bataan, evening bringing in the big
Sally army bombers. I was even more interested to know how badly hurt they had
been by AAA from the Bataan defenders. But when I wondered what unit with what
weaponry were doing this damage, the text was silent. I also wondered what

Well, the Japanese wouldn't have known that! As always, what an
individual writes about his own side is generally fairly close to the
mark. It's when he's writing or yarning about the other side (how many
planes went down, what kind of planes they were) that he goes astray.

altitude the Sallys were bombing from, and if the Jap experience with US Army
AAA at Bataan influenced them to fly at 22,000 feet over port moresby, greatly
reducing their effectiveness, that being ironic because there was no AAA at
Moresby. I was also interested to learn that the Japs bombed the dug in troops
on Bataan with 50kg bombs, and I wondered what genius had decided on that. The

Perhaps all they had? The Japanese were always operating ahead of
their supply line. They set out to invade Burma without drop tanks for
their fighters. That's one reason the first raid on Rangoon was Dec
23, two weeks after the war began.

I suppose i am beating this to death, but I had high hopes for these expensive
volumes and it looks like the usual rehash, at least as far as US operations
go.

I found the Philippines chapters impossibly dull, and concluded that
you had to know something about the campaigns before you could
appreciate Shores & Co's day by day account of the fighting. The Burma
and Malaya accounts do stand up to the closest scrutiny. Can't say
about Indonesia, and I yield to your knowledge on the Philippines.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

In article ,
Cub Driver writes:

as it goes. i was interested to learn how the japs had had to pull air
resources out of southeast Asia to smash bataan, evening bringing in the big
Sally army bombers. I was even more interested to know how badly hurt they had
been by AAA from the Bataan defenders. But when I wondered what unit with what
weaponry were doing this damage, the text was silent. I also wondered what

Well, the Japanese wouldn't have known that! As always, what an
individual writes about his own side is generally fairly close to the
mark. It's when he's writing or yarning about the other side (how many
planes went down, what kind of planes they were) that he goes astray.

altitude the Sallys were bombing from, and if the Jap experience with US Army
AAA at Bataan influenced them to fly at 22,000 feet over port moresby, greatly
reducing their effectiveness, that being ironic because there was no AAA at
Moresby.

According to Stanton's "World War Two Order of Battle", Galahad Books,
NY, 1991, There were two Coast Artillery Regiments (Anti Aircraft) in
the Philippines. These were the 60th Coast Artillery
Regiment(Antiaircraft)(Semimobile), Originally headquartered at Ft
Mills, and the 200th Coast Artillery Regiment
(Antiaircraft)(Semimobile) Headquartered at Clark Field. The 200th
was a New Mexico National Guard unit that had arrived in Manila on 20
Nov 41.
A Coast Artillery Antiaircraft Regiment consisted of 3 Battalions,
with a total of 3 batteries of AAA Guns (3 inch M1 or M2,in the Philippines,
the 90mm gun wasn't yet available), 3 Automatic Weapons Batteries with
37mm M1 AA guns, and 3 searchlight batteries. The Horizontal range of
the 3" is given as 14,780 yds, and the effective ceiling is 27,900'.
The 37mm hat a Horizontal Range of 8,875 yds, and an effective ceiling
of 10.500', with a rate of fire of 120 rds/min. It was a little lower
in performance than a Bofers 40mm.

All of the guns could be controlled by either the Control Equipment
Set M1, or the Kerrison Predictor (M5), and were capable of remote
power control. The remote power control, BTW, is a Big Deal. It means
that the guns are trained, elevated, and, in the case of the larger
guns, the fuzes are set by the predictor, (Which were auto-following
systems. Once a good track was established, the predictor adjusted
the sight, and the guns, to follow the arget's motion. The operators
made small adjustments to improve the tracking. This eliminated most
of the human error that came from the transmitted order or "follow the
pointer" type systems that other combatants, most notably the Germans,
were never quite able to figure out. The U.S was able to build
effective remote power control systems on scales ranging from a B-29s
or A-26's .50 cal turrets, to an Iowa Class Battleship's 16" guns.
This made integrating bettter sensors, like radar, much easier in
U.S. systems.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

From: Cub Driver look@

be the material from Japanese sources. That would be completely new.

I guess. I don't know.

Oh, it is. My Flying Tigers book was published in 1991, and it was the
first to identify the Japanese units and airmen who fought in Burma
and China. The Bloody Shambles books came out in 1992, so of course we
didn't have the advantage of one another's work. Hata & Izawa's book
on the JAAF in English translation only came out this year!
www.danford.net/jaaface.htm

The Japanese navy fared better. John Lundstrom's First Team 1984 was
the first to do this kind of research for the navy carrier pilots. The
Hata & Izawa volume on the JNAF came out in English translation in
1989.

The pace has picked up more recently, with a bunch of Osprey books
using Japanese sources, and the Buffaloes Over Singapore book just
published by Grub Street.

There were a few articles published in places like the AAHS Journal
and the British air magazines, but nobody paid any attention to them.

Once information has become accepted, we think it's been around
forever. It's hard to believe that up to October 1991 everyone
accepted without question that the AVG Flying Tigers had fought the
A6M Zero in Burma and China, and most people believed that Japan had
only one (presumably independent) air force.

I picked up a recent book on the war in the Solomons and New Guinea, which was
okay as far as it went. But i stopped reading it because the author did not
have even one Japanese source. In the intro he made some excuse about how hard
it was to get Japanese sources. So what the japs did, how allied actions
affected them, etc., were speculation or based on war-era allied intelligence
estimates. So, for example, the fact that the Japanese military had better maps
of the Solomons than the allies is, according to this author "a mystery." Such
a piece of crap I won't even mention the author or title. He should be
ashamed.
But it's not a lot better with the Med. Everybody knows, for example, about
Omaha Beach, or even Guadalcanal, for that matter. But who knows about the US
Army Ranger units--1st and 3rd Ranger Battalions--that were massacred at
Cisterna. Of 767 men, only 6 escaped. Mention this and get only blank stares
or straight-out disbelief.
It is simply amazing to me that six decades after the war, aside from what
happened in northwest Europe, much of the war remains obscure, what little
written about it all too often riddled with myth, error and nonsense.
I'm glad you've done something to correct that picture.


Chris Mark

Trivia: Joe Moore, the pilot flying the transport that crashed into a P-40,
killing his passenger, Gen. Harold George, commander of the fighter forces in
the PI, was the son of Gen. George Moore, harbor defense commander at
Corregidor. Joe Moore himself later became a General, commanding 4TFW.


Chris Mark