Tweaking the throttle on approach

Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim writes:


Any plane with retractable gear and prop control is considered
complex.


Does adding an FMS change anything?


The reason a C172 is used as a trainer in real life is because it is a
very easy and forgiving airplane to fly. It is a good plane for
landings because of the high wing. And because you don't have to worry
with the gear or prop control you can concentrate on the fundamentals
of a stabilized approach and then when mastered move on to more
complex aircraft. Maybe a single engine retractable. I don't remember
if the Baron 58 in a multi or single engine.


It has two engines.

It still surprises me that moving a lever to extend or retract gear makes an
aircraft complex.

That's not the definition of complex. Needs a CS prop as well as flaps.

An autopilot or GPS is a lot more complex than a gear
lever.


You would think that - because you equate flying with looking at
avionics. Apparently you can't "fly" without one. They are not needed
for real flying. They can be ignored. The prop, cowl flaps, flaps,
landing all are vital to proper flying in a complex plane.

Tim writes:

You would think that - because you equate flying with looking at
avionics.

No, I think that because autopilots can have many different modes and
behaviors. Flaps and gear are more limited in their effects.

Apparently you can't "fly" without one.

I can, but for non-trivial flights I usually use the autopilot for much of the
flight. Also, on instrument approaches when there are many things to do,
using the AP lightens the workload a bit.

They are not needed for real flying. They can be ignored.

I'm not afraid to use an autopilot. Just because something isn't needed
doesn't mean that I feel compelled to prove that I can do without it. I use
all the available tools in the cockpit.

The prop, cowl flaps, flaps, landing all are vital to proper
flying in a complex plane.

They're an important _start_ to flying, yes. But later on it starts to
actually get complicated.

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On Mar 7, 4:11 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim writes:
Any plane with retractable gear and prop control is considered
complex.
[lots snipped]

It still surprises me that moving a lever to extend or retract gear makes an
aircraft complex. An autopilot or GPS is a lot more complex than a gear
lever.

It's not just the gear. Complex = flaps + gear + controllable prop,
where of course it's the combination of gear + prop that's the truly
"complex" part. "Complex" is just a word, anyway, as someone else
pointed out. They could've called it anything, but the point is that
a pilot must get training before being allowed to fly such aircraft.

Which makes sense... I mean heck, sometimes I think that automobile
drivers should be certified for manual transmissions. I see way too
many drivers who are very scary to be behind, when starting on hills
with their new 5-speed ;-)

Kev

Kev writes:

Which makes sense... I mean heck, sometimes I think that automobile
drivers should be certified for manual transmissions.

Some jurisdictions require this, but there seems to be little or no
enforcement. In my home State, as I recall, most people took the exam in an
automatic, and there was a box in which one could restrict them to automatics
only on the license, but this box was never used, leaving them able to drive
manual transmissions as well, even with zero experience.

But learning to drive with a manual transmission only takes a day. I suspect
that learning to move a gear lever or a flaps lever is comparable.


I see way too many drivers who are very scary to be behind, when starting on hills
with their new 5-speed ;-)

Yes, but much depends on how often you are in that situation.

I'm sure there are many exceptional situations in which the average pilot
would be hopelessly and dangerously at a loss, but if those situations don't
often arise, it probably won't ever be a problem.

It goes without saying that most pilots, like most drivers, will handle the
most common situations well, and will handle the exceptional situations
poorly. Having a license doesn't change this.

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Hi,

In article .com,
wrote:
Which makes sense... I mean heck, sometimes I think that automobile
drivers should be certified for manual transmissions. I see way too
many drivers who are very scary to be behind, when starting on hills
with their new 5-speed ;-)

In the UK, they are. You can either take your driving test in a manual or an
automatic. If you take it in a manual, you can drive either. If you take it
in an automatic, you can only drive automatics.

Andy

It still surprises me that moving a lever to extend or retract gear makes an
aircraft complex. An autopilot or GPS is a lot more complex than a gear
lever.

Its called 'pilot workload'.

In a real aircraft, you must:
-Fly the Plane
-Operate The Aircraft Systems
-Keep track of your current location
-Communicate with ATC
-Keep Watch for Traffic
-Plan your future track (or reference your flightplan), this includes
making absolutely sure you remain clear of all restricted airspace.

All in a reasonably loud, chaotic setting, with absolutely no option
to 'pause'...

Your sim covers 1 and 2 well... 3 and 6 ok (The various ways that
simulators try and 'trick you up' navigation wise are very poor
approximations of the real situations that come up... and restricted
airspace is a non-issue). and 4 and 5 are jokes (pressing an
'acknowledge' button gives you absolutely no sense of how critical it
is to keep constant track of ATC's dealings with the other aircraft
around you... whose transmitters are 1960s vacuum tube technology and
who all have different accents/ways of talking and traffic scanning on
a monitor is nearly impossible)...

So basically, in your little flight simulator, you are dealing with
MAYBE half of the 'real-world' pilot workload... AND you have a pause
when you get overwhelmed...

Aircraft Systems (but not avionix) dictate an aircraft's complexity
simply because those are the aspects of flying that the pilot cannot
time-shift, cannot get away from, and who knows what else he'll need
to be doing at the time. The complexity of an aircraft has nothing to
do with its 'mean' level of pilot involvement, its the potential
'worse-case' level of pilot involvement (low on fuel, landing in the
dark at an unknown towered airport, for example) that dictates it
because there simply is no option for the pilot workload to exceed his
capabilities at any point during the flight- the results would be
fatal.

Of course, you would know this if you had ever actually sat in a
cockpit, instead of trying to tell us that we're incompetent because
your little simulation (no matter how accurate it is at covering what
it does) simply does not take into account the full range of
experiences and requirements placed on a pilot...

But I guess its my problem now because I'm bothering to respond.

On Mar 9, 1:33 pm, "EridanMan" wrote:
It still surprises me that moving a lever to extend or retract gear makes an
aircraft complex. An autopilot or GPS is a lot more complex than a gear
lever.

Its called 'pilot workload'.

In a real aircraft, you must:
-Fly the Plane
-Operate The Aircraft Systems
-Keep track of your current location
-Communicate with ATC
-Keep Watch for Traffic
-Plan your future track (or reference your flightplan), this includes
making absolutely sure you remain clear of all restricted airspace.

All in a reasonably loud, chaotic setting, with absolutely no option
to 'pause'...


I couldn't agree more!

I have been in situations where I desperately wished I could pause the
flight, one time it was because I was trying to work out where I was
over hostile and rugged terrain with no landmarks at all, while having
to fly around clouds, up valleys, not sure if my heading calculation
worked out when I had to divert was correct, which was worked out
using a map and protractor while flying through heavy turbulence,
trying to keep the wings level with my knees while working the heading
out, while dealing with an aircraft with absolutely no navaids and no
gps, a badly drifting DG, and no way to fly straight and level long
enough to reset it, flying over tiger country, and then I came to some
flat land I found I was just about right above an airfield I didn't
recognise that wasn't on the map, and having to scramble through my
map collection to find that I'd gone off the edge of my map and was
less than 1/4 mile from military airspace, all the while having to
look out for other aircraft, and fly my aircraft, the one with two
different wings that flies in circles unless you keep a heap of rudder
in the whole time...

EridanMan writes:

Its called 'pilot workload'.

In a real aircraft, you must:
-Fly the Plane
-Operate The Aircraft Systems
-Keep track of your current location
-Communicate with ATC
-Keep Watch for Traffic
-Plan your future track (or reference your flightplan), this includes
making absolutely sure you remain clear of all restricted airspace.

All in a reasonably loud, chaotic setting, with absolutely no option
to 'pause'...

Sounds doable, with a bit of practice. I don't have much trouble with it in
the sim.

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writes:

If not aligned at the threshold in a real plane, you should go around.
You should strive to become aligned with the centerline soon after
turning onto final, and then hold it there. It can be done with
practice. Don't forget you'll need a crab angle to take care of
crosswind.

I'm pretty sure I've seen videos of real pilots (in small aircraft) turning to
align with the runway _after_ the threshold, but I suppose that just because
they do it doesn't make it a smart idea.

Don't try to do both at the same time. Hold power constant, and
adjust pitch with the yoke until you are at your desired airspeed,
then apply trim until you can release the yoke without the pitch
attitude (and therefore, airspeed) changing. Then with the airspeed
stabilized, adjust power to change the rate of descent, small changes
in power won't affect your airspeed.

OK

You need the proper speed for your aircraft. If it's not available in
the Pilot's Operating Handbook, then use an old rule of thumb, set the
airspeed equal to 1.3 times the aircraft's stall speed. Your aircraft
should be slowed to this speed by the time you turn final, and then
hold it precisely at that speed. The normal way to hold airspeed is
by trimming to that speed in pitch.

I'm usually close to 1.3 x Vso, probably just by luck. I'm usually
preoccupied with holding the glide path and I worry about speed a lot less
unless I'm too close to stall speed. My worst experiences on landing have
occurred because I was going too slow and stalled just above the runway, so
that has spooked me into keeping my speed up. But looking at my aircraft I
see that 100 kts is already just about 1.3 x Vso, so I guess I'm not going so
fast after all. I'm usually going 30-40 kts faster on the approach and only
slow to 100 just before crossing the threshold.

In extreme cases I've slipped forward down to the glide path, which works very
well for descending rapidly without going to fast, but my problem there is
getting myself straight and aligned while exiting the slip.

You will not achieve consistent landings until you can fly a
stabilized approach. To do this, you need to discover the numbers for
your aircraft, and then use them. To find them, I suggest you conduct
some experiments in the sim. Set up your aircraft in level flight on
downwind, constant speed, gear down, at 1000 ft AGL, with a medium
power setting. When opposite the numbers, lower your flaps to their
first setting (or 10 deg) and reduce power until you stabilize at a
500 ft/min descent rate with the airspeed at 1.5 times stall speed.
Record the power setting and airspeed. Use those numbers for your
initial descent from the pattern. After 30 seconds, turn base and
lower flaps to the second setting and set pitch for airspeed = 1.4
times stall speed. Then turn final, lower flaps completely, and set
pitch for 1.3 times stall speed. Fly it like this until you hit the
ground. If you land long, then reduce power a little more next time.
If you land short, add a little power next time. Keep iterating until
you zero in on the right numbers.

OK, I'll try that: 1.5, then 1.4, then 1.3. I think I'm pretty close to that
now.

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Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

If not aligned at the threshold in a real plane, you should go around.
You should strive to become aligned with the centerline soon after
turning onto final, and then hold it there. It can be done with
practice. Don't forget you'll need a crab angle to take care of
crosswind.

I'm pretty sure I've seen videos of real pilots (in small aircraft) turning to
align with the runway _after_ the threshold, but I suppose that just because
they do it doesn't make it a smart idea.

I may have misunderstood your earlier post about being misaligned when
crossing the threshold. I originally thought you meant that you were
not positioned over the centerline (bad), but maybe you meant that
your airplane's centerline was not parallel to the runway centerline.
If so, then that is not unusual, or bad, but you MUST align before
touchdown. (Use rudder to straighten out, and opposite aileron to
prevent lateral drift)


In extreme cases I've slipped forward down to the glide path, which works very
well for descending rapidly without going to fast, but my problem there is
getting myself straight and aligned while exiting the slip.

Yes, straightening out after a slip seems to be harder in the sim than
in the real plane.