A380 captain's pay

On May 26, 8:25 pm, wrote:
On May 26, 5:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:





In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" said:

The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a

Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
years there won't be a single job left in the US.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH

Hi Paul,

Yes, I told my nephew not to become a Mechanical Engineer for the same
reason. He is going into business and Lanscape Architecture instead.
They can't offshore that.

One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
here in Idaho.

Maybe they are really, really old. I got out of school in the 90's
just ahead of the internet boom. I don't ever remember there being job
stability(if you define it as being able to work for the same company
for 40 years), and hours have always been long (actually they were a
lot longer before the industrialization of software). The bottom line
is that there were *WAY* too many people calling themselves
programmers during the internet bubble. Now you have to know what you
are doing.

-robert

On May 26, 4:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" said:

The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a

Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

Personally I have seen salerys do nothing but go up in the U.S. since
early 2000's (yes, they did drop for a bit, but have more than
recovered). My friends and I have been moving around and have found 6
figures still available. However, if the last time you updated your
skills was 1995 you probably won't get much work. Things change fast,
you need to keep up with recurrent training (JEE, .NET, etc). The days
of sitting at your desk and expecting the world to sit around and wait
for you are gone.

I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
years there won't be a single job left in the US.

Sounds like something from talk radio but certainly very contrary to
what I've seen. In fact the biggest issue is that other types of
engineering have been taking good programmers out of the pool. Sales
engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored. There is
travel involved but you usually work from home.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary writes:

Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.

Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

On May 26, 11:04 am, Martin Hotze wrote:
On 25 May 2007 15:34:25 -0700, Robert M. Gary wrote:

-Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
software

hopefully we (EU) won't introduce software patents ...
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/index.html

I'm not an idealist, I'm a pragmatist. I excel in the environment I'm
in. I agree that software patents have gotten out of control in many
ways but I swim in the pool I fall in.

-Robert

Paul Tomblin writes:

The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer; that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 26, 12:32 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Paul Tomblin writes:
The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer;


How ould you know you racist fjukkwit?

You don't employ, you don't fly and you don't think.


Bertie

that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Maybe Bertie..

But, by whatever means, he is correct....

Major prob for companies "outsourcing offshore " at this time...

D

On 25 May 2007 16:56:34 -0700, Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

On May 26, 12:32 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Paul Tomblin writes:
The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer;


How ould you know you racist fjukkwit?

You don't employ, you don't fly and you don't think.


Bertie

that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 25, 7:25 pm, Dave wrote:
Maybe Bertie..

But, by whatever means, he is correct....

Major prob for companies "outsourcing offshore " at this time...

Works both ways. I actually have a job offer in hand as we speak for a
6 figure job working near Sacramento for an Indian company. Those damn
Americans keep taking all the Indian jobs! I still haven't decided
if I'll take it but I've already begun dumping stock options in my
current company so I guess that says something.

-Robert

On May 25, 4:32 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Paul Tomblin writes:
The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer; that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

Sadly I do have experience with employees in France. There is no way I
would hire a programmer there. We do hire field guys there when the
need is extream and our UK guys can't hold up the need. The problem is
that if you hire someone in France when sales are going up, you can't
let them go when sales go down. It takes us about 12 months to lay
someone off in France (usually you have to send them away with a
massive pot of cash to agree to leave early). We even had an executive
in France that was right out pocking sales money. We couldn't fire him
for more than 6 months. We actually had to send letters to our
customers and tell them that, although he was still an employee, he
was not authorized to enter any agreements.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary writes:

Sadly I do have experience with employees in France.

France is not a Third-World outsourcing country. There isn't really any
advantage to hiring anyone in Western Europe, but France is one of the worst
choices.

--
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