Should I upgrade from Skylane to Cirrus SR20?

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Marc CYBW writes:

Comments?

You place too much faith in a big red handle.



Big red handle?

that what it looks like in your imaginary world?

Bwawhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhahwhhahwhahwhahhw!

Bertie

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Marc CYBW writes:

Comments?

You place too much faith in a big red handle.

You're totally not gellin'

On Jun 13, 12:51 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Marc CYBW writes:
Comments?

You place too much faith in a big red handle.

CTRL-ALT-Delete isn't an option for most of us here...

"Marc CYBW" wrote in message
news:%SIbi.18217$1i1.13157@pd7urf3no...
Hi group,

Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......

..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the club
rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:

- the big red handle on the SR20
- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6 in
one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
service, etc.)
- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
- the O2 system for mountain flying
- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
mention that)
- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
liability

So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests we
go for it.

Seems logical so far.

Comments?

Marc



We beat the safety issue to death, and it came back to life a couple of
times. IMHO, we finally buried it after the Corey Liddle crash and, if you
are curious, the entire autopsy (conducted on this forum) should still be
available on Google.

Personally, I don't like the airplane, because of the geometry of the stick
and also the small rudder; but I concede that may be a good fit for others.

However, if you are interested in becomming an owner, I would *strongly*
suggest that you talk to some local owners and pilots. For example, one
pilot personally known to me, who also uses his Cirrus for instruction, told
me that stick geometry (which appears tiring to me) is not a factor because
the aircraft is normally flown on autopilot most of the time.

So, do those local interviews, take an extended test drive (or at least sit
in it as a sort of mock-up simulator), and get some of your fellow
fractional owners to do the same. Then, you may have a better idea of
whether it is a good fit, or a poor fit.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote
So, do those local interviews, take an extended test drive (or at
least sit in it as a sort of mock-up simulator), and get some of your
fellow fractional owners to do the same. Then, you may have a
better idea of whether it is a good fit, or a poor fit.

Damn Peter, I was happy hating the Cirrus for years until I did just that.
Then I took a half hour demo flight and my elbow didn't touch the other
guy's even once. Now, every once in a while, I find myself peeking at the
used listings.

"Mike Isaksen" wrote:

So, do those local interviews, take an extended test drive (or at
least sit in it as a sort of mock-up simulator), and get some of your
fellow fractional owners to do the same. Then, you may have a
better idea of whether it is a good fit, or a poor fit.

Damn Peter, I was happy hating the Cirrus for years until I did just that.
Then I took a half hour demo flight and my elbow didn't touch the other
guy's even once.


Yep. That roomy interior is one of the best things about a Cirrus.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:45:15 GMT, "Marc CYBW"
wrote:

Hi group,

Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......

..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the club
rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:

- the big red handle on the SR20
- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6 in
one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
service, etc.)
- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
- the O2 system for mountain flying
- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
mention that)
- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
liability

So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests we
go for it.

50%?

Around here it'd be 300 to 500% when the entire cost of the fractional
ownership is taken into account. Just the hourly rates are well over
double that of a 182 unless you are talking a 182 RG. Add to that a
very large chunk of change for buying in plus the tremendous amount of
training you will need from Cirrus to maintain currency.


Seems logical so far.

Comments?

Marc

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in
:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:45:15 GMT, "Marc CYBW"
wrote:

Hi group,

Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......

..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the
club rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:

- the big red handle on the SR20
- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6
in one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
service, etc.)
- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
- the O2 system for mountain flying
- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
mention that)
- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
liability

So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests
we go for it.

50%?

Around here it'd be 300 to 500% when the entire cost of the fractional
ownership is taken into account. Just the hourly rates are well over
double that of a 182 unless you are talking a 182 RG. Add to that a
very large chunk of change for buying in plus the tremendous amount of
training you will need from Cirrus to maintain currency.


Seems logical so far.

Comments?

Marc


I built a spread sheet several years ago when the fractional owerships
were offering a new C-182 and compared it with a rental Piper Arrow 200.
Using 0% for the lost opportunity cost of the down payment, it still took
200 hours/year before the fractional ownership was only 50% more than the
rental cost. At 5% interest for the opportunity cost of the down payment,
I would have needed 250 hours to have the fractional ownership only be 50%
more than renting.

I then did the comparison between the fractional C-182 and used double
the Arrow 200 rate to guess at the rental rate for a C-210. At that point,
with 5% interest rate, the break even was 150 hours. At 50 hours, the
fractional C-182 was 20% more than 50 hours rental for the C-210.

If someone has the buy-in, monthly charges, and hourly costs for the
various plans (silver, gold, platinum) for a fractional SR-20 or SR-22 and
the currently rental rate for a C-210 or C-182 + monthly flying club
membership, I'll see if I can find my old spread sheet and plug current
numbers in. I'll use current 10-year t-note yeild for the interest rate on
the opportunity cost of money.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in
:

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 02:45:15 GMT, "Marc CYBW"
wrote:

Hi group,

Good arguments for skipping the SR20 so far, but......

..... one of the other fractional owners in our group looked at the
possibility of a few of us buying one of the 182s (as opposed to the
club rental beater) and suggested the following reasons for upgrading:

- the big red handle on the SR20
- the fun and challenge of flying a technologically current plane
- the flexibility of availability of 16 people in 2 planes vs. (say) 6
in one plane (the 182 shared among 6)
- the upcoming engine overhaul on the 182
- laying off the risk of repairs, etc on the fractional operator
- the red carpet treatment of fractional ownership (scheduling, ramp
service, etc.)
- the big red handle (did I mention that?)
- the fun of a new airplane (did I mention that)
- the O2 system for mountain flying
- the big red handle when you're over the Rockies at 15,000 ft.(did I
mention that)
- the hassles of setting up a limited corporation to (maybe) limit our
liability

So, for an increase of about 50% in cost for a 50 hr year, he suggests
we go for it.

50%?

Around here it'd be 300 to 500% when the entire cost of the fractional
ownership is taken into account. Just the hourly rates are well over
double that of a 182 unless you are talking a 182 RG. Add to that a
very large chunk of change for buying in plus the tremendous amount of
training you will need from Cirrus to maintain currency.


Seems logical so far.

Comments?

Marc


I built a spread sheet several years ago when the fractional owerships
were offering a new C-182 and compared it with a rental Piper Arrow 200.
Using 0% for the lost opportunity cost of the down payment, it still took
200 hours/year before the fractional ownership was only 50% more than the
rental cost. At 5% interest for the opportunity cost of the down payment,
I would have needed 250 hours to have the fractional ownership only be 50%
more than renting.

I then did the comparison between the fractional C-182 and used double
the Arrow 200 rate to guess at the rental rate for a C-210. At that
point,
with 5% interest rate, the break even was 150 hours. At 50 hours, the
fractional C-182 was 20% more than 50 hours rental for the C-210.

If someone has the buy-in, monthly charges, and hourly costs for the
various plans (silver, gold, platinum) for a fractional SR-20 or SR-22 and
the currently rental rate for a C-210 or C-182 + monthly flying club
membership, I'll see if I can find my old spread sheet and plug current
numbers in. I'll use current 10-year t-note yeild for the interest rate
on
the opportunity cost of money.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

I don't have the numbers, but I expect the result to be an interesting read.

BTW, it might also be interesting to plug in the cost of the Skylane with a
BRS kit added. Personally I think that it is silly, but if someone simply
must have that feature (which I find analogous to Linus' Blanket in the
"Peanuts" comic strip) then the addition to an aircraft that demonstrated
recovery from a 1/2 turn spin entry would seem preferable.

Peter

The flying club at Springbank also just added a couple of new Diamond DA20's
to their rental/training fleet. At 50 hours per year, it would probably be
a considerable cost saving to rent those for your day VFR trips (though
availability would be more of an issue) and rent the Arrow or 182 for those
few trips where you need the useful load and/or passenger capacity.

"Marc CYBW" wrote in message
news:leobi.15208$NV3.6049@pd7urf2no...
I am a fractional owner of a pair of very nice Skylanes at Springbank
airport in Calgary (CYBW) and fly here and there, mostly just around
Alberta but occasionally on vacation - usually over the mountains to the
wet coast -(i.e. Vancouver island) - about 50 hrs /yr. Great operation.
Great service. Almost always a plane available. Planning on Oshkosh next
year.

The Skylanes are about 7 old and the operation wants to upgrade to SR20's.
Double the investment, substantial increase in monthly and hourly costs.
Plus I'll have to train to upgrade to glass panels (8 hrs). Currently have
210 hrs. VFR OTT. Most of night rating. No intention of getting IFR
rating.

No other fractional operation around so it's SR20 or back to the beaters
(182 or Arrow) at the flying club.

Recommendations anyone?

Thanks,
Marc

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