FAA "Centers" have primary radar?

Newps writes:



Owen wrote:
The FAA's strategy changed in September, 2001.

Primary
coverage will be with us to stay, and may even be expanded in some areas.


Radar's days are limited. After ADS-B gets rolled out radar sites will
be decommissioned.


I doubt that. I've no doubt they'll be downgraded, but as much as the FAA
would love to unplug them, other folks will object.

That said, while the primary radar exists; I hear it's less and less well
maintained. Hopefully it can still spot invading Zeppelins but lesser
targets...?

[Pre WWII, the Germans flew the Graf Zeppelin airship around looking
to see if the British had radar. Trouble was, they were not listening
anywhere near the ~30 Mhz freq. used by the Brit's system.. Needless to
say, to Chain Home it must have looked like a parachute flare in a pitch
black darkroom...]

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center lost
radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the ocean in a
warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no ability to skin
paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do only with this
situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and Centers in general
have skin paint capable radars.

If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them in
my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free at
www.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger

what was the altitude.. where you below the "radar horizon" for the range
from the antenna?
Was the "target aircraft" in a "blind radar area for the altitude" based on
a close in obstruction such as earth or building?

B

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center
lost radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the
ocean in a warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no ability
to skin paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do only with
this situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and Centers in
general have skin paint capable radars.

If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them in
my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free at
www.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger

"BT" wrote in message
...
what was the altitude.. where you below the "radar horizon" for the range
from the antenna?
Was the "target aircraft" in a "blind radar area for the altitude" based
on a close in obstruction such as earth or building?

Good question, but wouldn't the things you talk about affect the secondary
radar as well.

They were out over the Atlantic Ocean in a miltary Warning Area under the
control of Washington Center. After the acident, we were all briefed if we
lost our transponder Washington Center could not paint us. Apparently this
is not true for Centers in general. Maybe it had to do with Washington
Center's radar coverage out over the Atlantic.

You can read the details in my free book you can get at my web site
www.dannydeger.net. Look on page 31. I have lots of other good flying
stories in the book you might enjoy.

Danny Deger

B

"Danny Deger" wrote in message
...
"Bob" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary
radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and
the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center
lost radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the
ocean in a warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no
ability to skin paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do
only with this situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and
Centers in general have skin paint capable radars.

If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them
in my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free at
www.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger

On Aug 5, 3:58 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message

...

On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:43:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

In another thread I am in a discussion on radar capability for FAA
"Centers". My recollection is that they typically have no primary radar,
thus no capability to paint weather. Someone is telling me they do.
Anybody out there have the answer. Maybe some do and some don't, and the
ones I used in the past don't.

"FAA Primary En Route Long Range Radar Restructuring Program
The FAA currently uses and supports 126 primary en route radar
facilities. The FAA is chartered to provide Primary radar services to
all federal agencies requiring this data to meet their operational
missions."
http://www.faa.gov/asd/ia-or/longrangeradar.htm

Thanks for the link. I found it very useful. I think my confusion comes
from an accident where a friend of mine died because Washington Center lost
radar contact when he lost his transponder. He was out over the ocean in a
warning area. We were briefed Washington Center had no ability to skin
paint. I am starting to realize this probably had to do only with this
situation of being over the ocean in a warning area and Centers in general
have skin paint capable radars.

My understanding of FAA radar is the transponder is just used to ID
the aircraft and provide altitude information. A plane with a
defective transponder can be seen on radar, but no ID or altitude.
The transponder is pinged at 1030MHz, and responds on 1090MHz. I
believe the actually locating radar is in a different band. Note the
911 hijackers turned off the transponders, but the planes were still
tracked.

Someone mentioned secondary surveillance. This is mode-s. It is also
on 1030/1090Mhz. However, the reply from the transponder is more
detailed. It contains a unique code for each aircraft. The older
transponders simply return the squawk code that was assigned by ATC
and entered by the pilot. Some mode-s can return airspace and
location.

http://mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mode-s/
http://adsb.tc.faa.gov/





If anyone is interested in the details of this fatal flight, I put them in
my book, "Houston, You Have a Problem" and you can get it for free atwww.dannydeger.net

Danny Deger

On Aug 6, 1:56 am, wrote

Someone mentioned secondary surveillance. This is mode-s. It is also
on 1030/1090Mhz. However, the reply from the transponder is more
detailed. It contains a unique code for each aircraft. The older
transponders simply return the squawk code that was assigned by ATC
and entered by the pilot. Some mode-s can return airspace and
location.

http://mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mo...sb.tc.faa.gov/

Secondary radar is the term for any transponder mode radar--A, C or S.

On Aug 6, 1:56 am, wrote:


Someone mentioned secondary surveillance. This is mode-s. It is also
on 1030/1090Mhz. However, the reply from the transponder is more
detailed. It contains a unique code for each aircraft. The older
transponders simply return the squawk code that was assigned by ATC
and entered by the pilot. Some mode-s can return airspace and
location.

http://mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mo...sb.tc.faa.gov/



Secondary "radar" is any type of system where the target is an active
particpant in the radio direction and ranging system. In the US civil
airways system this can be mode a/c/s and it is all the same (more or
less) technical description...

aka the main Secondary system sends out an interrogation pulse on one
frequency and the target replies on another. The times are measured
(ie time main pulse went out and secondary pulse recieved) and hence
range is achieved. Direction is based on the pointing of the primary
interrogator.

"Beacon" Antennas are commonly (but not always) co located with main
primary radar...they will generally be the "flat" rectangle on top of
the main (larger) antenna. They can stand alone...and that is common
in places like Canada and Austrailia...they require far less power
then primary or skin paint radars.

Beacon (ie secondary radar) was a US invention in WWII...It was called
"IFF" identification friend or foe".

What seperates a primary radar for ATC and one for WX are the
characteristics of the radar. Frequency is important but more so are
pulse repetition rate (PRR), polarization, and antenna rotation rate.
Most people think that there is one "echo returned" from a
target...this is not correct.

The PRR and antenna rotation rate are designed to maximise the number
of "Paints" of a target on a particular sweep.

Robert

On Aug 6, 8:49 am, Luke Skywalker wrote:
On Aug 6, 1:56 am, wrote:

Someone mentioned secondary surveillance. This is mode-s. It is also
on 1030/1090Mhz. However, the reply from the transponder is more
detailed. It contains a unique code for each aircraft. The older
transponders simply return the squawk code that was assigned by ATC
and entered by the pilot. Some mode-s can return airspace and
location.

http://mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2000/mo...sb.tc.faa.gov/

Secondary "radar" is any type of system where the target is an active
particpant in the radio direction and ranging system. In the US civil
airways system this can be mode a/c/s and it is all the same (more or
less) technical description...

aka the main Secondary system sends out an interrogation pulse on one
frequency and the target replies on another. The times are measured
(ie time main pulse went out and secondary pulse recieved) and hence
range is achieved. Direction is based on the pointing of the primary
interrogator.

"Beacon" Antennas are commonly (but not always) co located with main
primary radar...they will generally be the "flat" rectangle on top of
the main (larger) antenna. They can stand alone...and that is common
in places like Canada and Austrailia...they require far less power
then primary or skin paint radars.

Beacon (ie secondary radar) was a US invention in WWII...It was called
"IFF" identification friend or foe".

What seperates a primary radar for ATC and one for WX are the
characteristics of the radar. Frequency is important but more so are
pulse repetition rate (PRR), polarization, and antenna rotation rate.
Most people think that there is one "echo returned" from a
target...this is not correct.

The PRR and antenna rotation rate are designed to maximise the number
of "Paints" of a target on a particular sweep.

Robert

Are you saying FAA radar determines the position from the l-band
interrogation signal? This is not the case. The primary radar is
around 2.8GHz.