NTSB: Crossfield Not Warned Of Adverse Weather

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
I am hoping that ADS-B will help to prevent these kinds of tragedies.
Having real-time traffic and weather data streaming into your avionics
from ground stations should make all of us safer if we know where to
look for each other in flight, and we all give severe weather the
respect and wide berth it deserves...

I am confused. He could not look outside and see that weather was
bad? Technology is nice but common sense is needed more by some
pilots.

I don't know his case, but when flying in the clouds with imbedded
thunderstoms, you can't see the storms. Without a radar on board, I prefer
to stay VMC if there are thunderstorms in the area.

Danny Deger

Ron Lee

On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:23:29 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:

I don't know his case, but when flying in the clouds with imbedded
thunderstoms, you can't see the storms. Without a radar on board, I prefer
to stay VMC if there are thunderstorms in the area.

That's what I was thinking.

Has anyone read this book?
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Checkride-Flight-Instructor-Taught/dp/0070224684/ref=sr_1_1/102-8529981-0193753?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186268573&sr=8-1

The author was vectored into an embedded thunderstorm, blowing the
door off of a Piper twin, which removed part of the tail.

Embedded t-storms do happen...

On Aug 3, 6:06 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message

. ..



Danny Deger wrote:

I don't think any of the "Centers" have skin paint.

They all do. And thus they have weather.

Then you have operated in a different flight control system I have for the
last 35 years. A friend of mine died because he lost his transponder and
Washington Center didn't have his skin paint.

Danny Deger

There could be several reasons why a skin paint is not displayed on a
radar scope. The fact that a particular radar does not pickup
enough energy from a primary return to display it does not mean that
it is incapable of displaying any primary returns. The reason we have
transponders is to make radar returns more powerful. Aside from a
return too weak to display, the radar operator has to configure his
radar to display primary returns or secondary returns or both. If the
radar operator filters out all but secondary returns (transponders)
then of course, no "skin paints" or weather will be displayed on his
scope.

"150flivver" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 3, 6:06 pm, "Danny Deger" wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message

. ..



Danny Deger wrote:

I don't think any of the "Centers" have skin paint.

They all do. And thus they have weather.

Then you have operated in a different flight control system I have for
the
last 35 years. A friend of mine died because he lost his transponder and
Washington Center didn't have his skin paint.

Danny Deger

There could be several reasons why a skin paint is not displayed on a
radar scope. The fact that a particular radar does not pickup
enough energy from a primary return to display it does not mean that
it is incapable of displaying any primary returns. The reason we have
transponders is to make radar returns more powerful. Aside from a
return too weak to display, the radar operator has to configure his
radar to display primary returns or secondary returns or both. If the
radar operator filters out all but secondary returns (transponders)
then of course, no "skin paints" or weather will be displayed on his
scope.


My understanding is -- "Centers" do not have ANY capability for primary
radar. They are secondary only. Maybe I am mistaken, but I have been
flying for many years and have been told this by many people. This is why
"Centers" have, as I understand it, zero capability to help out with storms.

The factors you mention have a lot to do with why approach controls and a
radar equipped towers are very poor for weather avoidance. They have their
primary radar optimized for painting aircraft, not for painting weather.

I am not going to say I can't be wrong. If someone like a Center flight
controller pops in and says he has primary radar capability, I will stand
down. But I am an active pilot in Texas. My plan is to continue to think I
MIGHT get some storm information from approach control and I will NEVER get
storm information from a Center.

Danny Deger

Danny Deger wrote:


My understanding is -- "Centers" do not have ANY capability for primary
radar. They are secondary only. Maybe I am mistaken,


Terribly.




but I have been
flying for many years and have been told this by many people. This is
why "Centers" have, as I understand it, zero capability to help out with
storms.


All Centers have weather radar capability.

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Danny Deger wrote:


My understanding is -- "Centers" do not have ANY capability for primary
radar. They are secondary only. Maybe I am mistaken,


Terribly.

Thanks for the information. Next time I am talking to a Center and need
storm information, I will ask them.

Danny Deger

On Sun, 5 Aug 2007 13:04:36 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:


Thanks for the information. Next time I am talking to a Center and need
storm information, I will ask them.

If you get a chance, call the local ATC center an ask for a tour.
That's what a group of us did to tour BDL a few years ago, and the
tour was absolutely fantastic. The tour wasn't a simple "this is this
and that's one of those", but we were allowed to sit one-on-one with
controllers for a decent amount of time to really see how things
worked. We each rotated through all the different jobs in the
location, both app/dep and the tower cab!

I seem to remember reading somewhere, possibly in the AIM, that stated
something about how the FAA encourages pilots to visit ATC facilities.

Of course, here on the forum we get to ask Newps and Steven. G

Call and ask! I can't wait to go again, one of these days.

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Danny Deger wrote:


My understanding is -- "Centers" do not have ANY capability for primary
radar. They are secondary only. Maybe I am mistaken,


Terribly.

Have you ever worked a Center that looked out over the water? I friend of
mine flying F-4s died because Washington Center lost radar contact when he
lost his transponder. He was out over the water in a warning area. We
were told Washington Center had no primary radar. Perhaps it is only over
the water for Centers along the coast that there is no primary radar.

Danny Deger

Danny Deger wrote:


Have you ever worked a Center that looked out over the water?

No.


I friend
of mine flying F-4s died because Washington Center lost radar contact
when he lost his transponder. He was out over the water in a warning
area. We were told Washington Center had no primary radar. Perhaps it
is only over the water for Centers along the coast that there is no
primary radar.




So ATC loses his transponder and he forgets how to fly the plane?

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..


Danny Deger wrote:


Have you ever worked a Center that looked out over the water?

No.


I friend
of mine flying F-4s died because Washington Center lost radar contact
when he lost his transponder. He was out over the water in a warning
area. We were told Washington Center had no primary radar. Perhaps it
is only over the water for Centers along the coast that there is no
primary radar.




So ATC loses his transponder and he forgets how to fly the plane?

It was obviously much more complex than that. Go to my web site
www.dannydeger.net and download a free copy of my book. Look in the Seymour
Johnson chapter. I have a section on this fatal mishap.

Danny Deger