Why did Britain win the BoB?

In message , Guy Alcala
writes
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

In message , robert
arndt writes
Britain won the BoB because Churchill bombed Berlin and spoofed Adolf
into diverting the the airfield assaults onto London. EOS.

Grantland

Let me add that it was a lone German bomber that ditched its bombs
over London that caused the British reprisal raid on Berlin and change
of tactics that: relieved Fighter Command, enabled the airfields and
manufacturing plants to be repaired, and assured the Brits that the
German battle for air supremacy would fail now that civilian targets
were being hit instead of military ones. EOS indeed!

The story I found said that it was a lone bomber, aiming for one of the
Kent airfields, which decided to approach from the north-east over
London. They spotted Croydon and misidentified it as Biggin Hill(?) and
unloaded. Croydon was in the London area.

No, Croydon was mistakenly attacked (instead of Kenley) on 15 August by a
formation of Me-110s from Erprobungsgruppe 210 led by Rubensdorffer. This
isn't the mistaken attack on London: Hough and Richards "The Battle of
Britain" (while written for a general audience, it still has some useful
info) says that it was during a night bombing raid on August 24/25, and that
the City of London itself was hit, "in Fore Street, near the Barbican", as
well as some scatter elsewhere.

A raid on the docks at night? Dodgy if you want to miss the City itself.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

robert arndt wrote in message . ..
Britain won the BoB because Churchill bombed Berlin and spoofed Adolf
into diverting the the airfield assaults onto London. EOS.

Let me add that it was a lone German bomber that ditched its bombs
over London

"After dark on the 24th the attacks were stepped up, and
some 170 German aircraft ranged over England from the
borderland to Kent. Largely due to bad navigation bombers
directed to Rochester and the Thameshaven oil-tanks
dropped their loads on the City of London. For the first time
since the Gothas of 1918, Central London was damaged in
an air raid. Fires burned at London Wall, and boroughs like
Islington, Tottenham, Finsbury, Millwall, Stepney, East Ham,
Leyton, Coulsdon and Bethnel Green all received their share."

The Narrow Margin, Wood and Dempster.

The Peoples War by Angus Calder, notes "considerable fires".

Lot of damage by one bomber.

that caused the British reprisal raid on Berlin and change
of tactics that: relieved Fighter Command, enabled the airfields and
manufacturing plants to be repaired, and assured the Brits that the
German battle for air supremacy would fail now that civilian targets
were being hit instead of military ones. EOS indeed!


The major attacks on London did achieve what the Luftwaffe
was after, a major effort by Fighter Command, the trouble was
the Luftwaffe then lost the air battles. The afternoon raid on
15th September was 114 bombers escorted by 360 fighters
(20 Bf110), the RAF put round 275 fighters up.

As for aircraft factory raids,

An effective strike on the Shorts works making Stirling bombers
on 15th August.

14 Bf110s against a Vickers factory making Wellingtons on
4th September, plus a small formation to the Shorts works.

Hawkers were hit by a lone bomber on 21st September.

The Supermarine works were hit on 24th (fighter bombers)
and 26th September (major damage).

The switch away from the airfields seems to have been more
important for the control system (since it was co-located on the
airfields) than the ability to fly aircraft from those fields.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

(robert arndt) wrote:

Britain won the BoB because Churchill bombed Berlin and spoofed Adolf
into diverting the the airfield assaults onto London. EOS.

Grantland

Let me add that it was a lone German bomber that ditched its bombs
over London that caused the British reprisal raid on Berlin and change
of tactics that: relieved Fighter Command, enabled the airfields and
manufacturing plants to be repaired, and assured the Brits that the
German battle for air supremacy would fail now that civilian targets
were being hit instead of military ones. EOS indeed!

Rob

Well I could dispute the provenance of the "ditched" bombs, and the
absolute *need* to take heat off the airfields.. but Keith would chide
me. 'Can't have that.

Grantland

John Freck wrote:

Why did Britain win the BoB?

Let us imagine that we are going to be playing a complex wargame
assigned to us some 3rd or 4th year military science course. There
are 20 classmates. Each will have to write a report from either
GErmany's or Britain's perspective, and the grade will determine your
standing on your team when the game is played.
The Battle of the Atlantic is open to play too. In addition, any
commentary on any matter could boost your grade. Such as commenting
on mass communications then and now, or anything that seems intersting
and anytime relevant to military studies.

The setting is July 1st, 1940. What must the Axis do better?

Intel and analysis. Pound the CH and CHL radar stations from, say,
Bawdsey around to Ventnor, or at least Dover to Ventnor (see
Erprobungsgruppe 210 on 12 August); then, pound them some more and
continue to do so throughout. Hit Supermarine and Hawker earlier. Loose
escort. Ignore London.

In the 'maybe they could have done this if they'd put more emphasis on it'
class, speed up drop tank development and fitting (Me-109E-7). Improve
bomber defensive armament and armor.

And what must the Allies do better?

Adopt finger four instead of vic or trail. Better ASR, and (if possible)
rescue floats and provision of single-man dinghies would help with pilot
attrition. Abandon the east coast convoys for the time being. Better
camouflage and better protected dispersals on the fighter bases.
Transition the Defiant pilots to single-seat fighters, use them as
replacements or to increase fighter squadron pilot complements if
Hurricanes or Spits aren't available to re-form the squadrons on them.
Ideally an earlier debugging of the cannon would be nice, but I assume
you're limiting this to those things that were changeable in the
historical timeframe.

To me it looks like Germany can improve a lot, and Britain only a
little bit. It is easy for the Axis team to create a shopping list of
things to do better, or more, or less, but what can be put on the
Allies list?

See above.

Guy

In message , Guy Alcala
writes
John Freck wrote:

Why did Britain win the BoB?

Let us imagine that we are going to be playing a complex wargame
assigned to us some 3rd or 4th year military science course. There
are 20 classmates. Each will have to write a report from either
GErmany's or Britain's perspective, and the grade will determine your
standing on your team when the game is played.
The Battle of the Atlantic is open to play too. In addition, any
commentary on any matter could boost your grade. Such as commenting
on mass communications then and now, or anything that seems intersting
and anytime relevant to military studies.

The setting is July 1st, 1940. What must the Axis do better?
And what must the Allies do better?

Snip

Adopt finger four instead of vic or trail. Better ASR, and (if possible)
rescue floats and provision of single-man dinghies would help with pilot
attrition. Abandon the east coast convoys for the time being. Better
camouflage and better protected dispersals on the fighter bases.
Transition the Defiant pilots to single-seat fighters, use them as
replacements or to increase fighter squadron pilot complements if
Hurricanes or Spits aren't available to re-form the squadrons on them.
Ideally an earlier debugging of the cannon would be nice, but I assume
you're limiting this to those things that were changeable in the
historical timeframe.

Improve the co-operation between 11 Group and 10 Group.

Gag Bader.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"M. J. Powell" wrote:

snip

Improve the co-operation between 11 Group and 10 Group.

Presumably you mean between 11 and 12 Groups, but I agree. After I posted I
realized that the one thing I left off was to have Dowding more aware of the
situation developing between Park and Leigh-Mallory, and for him to step in
and resolve it.

Gag Bader.

Unnecessary, if Dowding had been on top of things. as simple a matter as
transferring 242 into 11 Group would have solved the problem, as Bader would
have been busy (and happy) fighting instead of sitting around fretting.

Guy

In message , Guy Alcala
writes
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

snip

Improve the co-operation between 11 Group and 10 Group.

Presumably you mean between 11 and 12 Groups, but I agree.

Yes, my mistake. (I was living under the protection of 10 Group at the
time!)

After I posted I
realized that the one thing I left off was to have Dowding more aware of the
situation developing between Park and Leigh-Mallory, and for him to step in
and resolve it.

Gag Bader.

Unnecessary, if Dowding had been on top of things. as simple a matter as
transferring 242 into 11 Group would have solved the problem, as Bader would
have been busy (and happy) fighting instead of sitting around fretting.

Good point, a bit more circulation would have helped.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

The setting is July 1st, 1940. What must the Axis do better?

The first thing I would suggest to the German air ministry is that it
develop drop-tanks immediately for the Bf-109.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"John Freck" wrote in message
om...
Why did Britain win the BoB?

Let us imagine that we are going to be playing a complex wargame
assigned to us some 3rd or 4th year military science course. There
are 20 classmates. Each will have to write a report from either
GErmany's or Britain's perspective, and the grade will determine your
standing on your team when the game is played.
The Battle of the Atlantic is open to play too. In addition, any
commentary on any matter could boost your grade. Such as commenting
on mass communications then and now, or anything that seems intersting
and anytime relevant to military studies.

The setting is July 1st, 1940. What must the Axis do better? And
what must the Allies do better?

To me it looks like Germany can improve a lot, and Britain only a
little bit. It is easy for the Axis team to create a shopping list of
things to do better, or more, or less, but what can be put on the
Allies list?

John Freck

Dispersing the aircraft helped a lot, not to mention the underestimation by
the Germans of the British radar, add to that the Germans overestimating the
remaining RAF forces. Some better intelligence by the Germans may have
changed the whole thing for the British.

What would have happened if the Germans had successfully over-run England? I
imagine a bloody period followed by protracted fighting until the US decided
to lend a hand. At which time, the German forces would find themselves both
attacking the British whilst defending themselves from US attacks. If the
channel was cut for German supplies England would be retaken. The losses to
all sides would have been horrendous though.

Just my quick 2 minute thoughts on it.


--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.

"The Raven" wrote in message
...


Dispersing the aircraft helped a lot, not to mention the underestimation
by
the Germans of the British radar, add to that the Germans overestimating
the
remaining RAF forces. Some better intelligence by the Germans may have
changed the whole thing for the British.

What would have happened if the Germans had successfully over-run England?
I
imagine a bloody period followed by protracted fighting until the US
decided
to lend a hand. At which time, the German forces would find themselves
both
attacking the British whilst defending themselves from US attacks. If the
channel was cut for German supplies England would be retaken. The losses
to
all sides would have been horrendous though.

Just my quick 2 minute thoughts on it.


A succesful invasion was never a realistic proposition.
At best a 'victory' in the BOB would have forced
the RAF to withdraw its forces to the north of London
where they were beyond escorted Luftwaffe range.

However the RAF could still have sallied forth to defend
against an invasion and the Germans simply had neither the
resources to get the invasion force across the channel or
any way of stopping the RN from chopping their force to bits.

see
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm#part2

Keith