Another Ancient Military Plane Grounded

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" said:
"M" wrote in message
...

A friend of mine who's an aerospace engineer (used to work for
McDonald Douglas) told me that the older design often has stronger
structure than newer ones.


Well, he could have worked for Donald Douglas, and he could have worked for
McDonnell Douglas, but I think it unlikely he worked for McDonald Douglas.

Maybe that's where they make McPlanes?


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
After 30 years, it should be pretty bloody obvious to everyone (but apparently
the memo has missed a few people) that all but the very best C programmers are
nothing but a danger to themselves and others. -- Mark Hughes

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:13:24 -0800 (PST), M wrote:

A friend of mine who's an aerospace engineer (used to work for
McDonald Douglas) told me that the older design often has stronger
structure than newer ones. He said in the old days the engineers had
very few tools and models for stress analysis of complex structure,
and they often overdesigned and resulted in planes that're much
stronger than the certification calls for. These days with advanced
computer model, if the certification calls for say max 3.8G and the
design goal is 15% above the certification limit, the engineers can
come up with a structure that'll break very close 4.4G, nothing more
and nothing less. The benefit of this is lighter weight and better
fuel efficiency, but it also means
the structure is not as overbuilt as older planes.

I don't understand. Overdesign doesn't necessarily mean greater longevity;
by definition, over design means that there is too much of something to
meet the requirements. If the spec is zero fatigue failures in X years,
then overdesign gives the same x years and there is waste. Were the planes
designed for 50 years, 25 years?

Paul Tomblin wrote:

Well, when each generation seems to cost 10 times as much as the previous
generation, I question how long until the Air Force consists of one
multi-role fighter bomber, one attack aircraft, one tanker, an AWACS, and
85 B-52s.

That's good enough to be someone's sig...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
...
More metal fatigue. Our military might as well be a chapter of the
Antique Aircraft Association in Blakesburg, Iowa...
************************************************** ************************************************** *****
Washington, USA - "Structural fatigue"
(WAPA) - The US Navy decided to ground 39 of its 161 P-3C Orion
reconnaissance planes, because according to data resulting from
examinations they show signs of "Structural fatigue on the lower
section of the wing". The aircraft will now undergo maintenance
interventions, which are expected to take from 18 to 24 months.

The P-3C Orion is a maritime patrol aircraft, produced in its first
model in the late 1950s by the Lockheed Martin Corporation, which
played an important role in the Cold War and are presently employed
among other in reconnaissance operations in the Iraq conflict. These
four-engine turboprops are expected to be gradually replaced by
Boeing's P-8A Poseidons, but the Navy counts to continue using the
P-3s until 2019. Therefore careful and periodical maintenance
activities will be needed.

Another model of aircraft of the US armed forces to have recently
showed signs of fatigue has been the F-15 jet fighter (see AVIONEWS).
(Avionews)
************************************************** ************************************************** *****
How long can our guys be expected to hold the line with these ancient
airplanes?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Ancient? What does that make those who flew...Uh...Nevermind.

Al G

Jay Honeck wrote:
More metal fatigue. Our military might as well be a chapter of the
Antique Aircraft Association in Blakesburg, Iowa...
************************************************* ************************************************** ******
Washington, USA - "Structural fatigue"
(WAPA) - The US Navy decided to ground 39 of its 161 P-3C Orion
reconnaissance planes, because according to data resulting from
examinations they show signs of "Structural fatigue on the lower
section of the wing". The aircraft will now undergo maintenance
interventions, which are expected to take from 18 to 24 months.


The P-3s have also been flying into hurricanes for a few decades. When you
beat an airplane up in weather like that, you can't expect it to last forever.
It's pretty impressive that they lasted this long (Weren't most of them built
in the 50s?). Structural fatigue is often directly related to the amount of
abuse and airframe must absorb. Navy planes are famous for requiring
special maintenance programs due to structural fatigue (usually the carrier
based ones).

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

Aviation Week had a recent article on this. They said the P8-A Poseidon
is being developed as a replacement. I guess it's a 737 derivative and
the 1st test aircraft will go to the Navy in 2009. Maybe I don't
understand the meaning of 'patrol' but how long can a 737 stay up?

Tom


Jay Honeck wrote:
More metal fatigue. Our military might as well be a chapter of the
Antique Aircraft Association in Blakesburg, Iowa...
************************************************** ************************************************** *****
Washington, USA - "Structural fatigue"
(WAPA) - The US Navy decided to ground 39 of its 161 P-3C Orion
reconnaissance planes, because according to data resulting from
examinations they show signs of "Structural fatigue on the lower
section of the wing". The aircraft will now undergo maintenance
interventions, which are expected to take from 18 to 24 months.

The P-3C Orion is a maritime patrol aircraft, produced in its first
model in the late 1950s by the Lockheed Martin Corporation, which
played an important role in the Cold War and are presently employed
among other in reconnaissance operations in the Iraq conflict. These
four-engine turboprops are expected to be gradually replaced by
Boeing's P-8A Poseidons, but the Navy counts to continue using the
P-3s until 2019. Therefore careful and periodical maintenance
activities will be needed.

Another model of aircraft of the US armed forces to have recently
showed signs of fatigue has been the F-15 jet fighter (see AVIONEWS).
(Avionews)
************************************************** ************************************************** *****
How long can our guys be expected to hold the line with these ancient
airplanes?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"T. McQuinn" wrote:

Aviation Week had a recent article on this. They said the P8-A Poseidon
is being developed as a replacement. I guess it's a 737 derivative and
the 1st test aircraft will go to the Navy in 2009. Maybe I don't
understand the meaning of 'patrol' but how long can a 737 stay up?

Add extra fuel tanks and a long time. You don't need to carry luggage
and 130 seats for passengers.

Ron Lee

On Dec 18, 1:55 pm, Jay Honeck wrote:
More metal fatigue. Our military might as well be a chapter of the
Antique Aircraft Association in Blakesburg, Iowa...
************************************************** *************************-******************************
Washington, USA - "Structural fatigue"
(WAPA) - The US Navy decided to ground 39 of its 161 P-3C Orion
reconnaissance planes, because according to data resulting from
examinations they show signs of "Structural fatigue on the lower
section of the wing". The aircraft will now undergo maintenance
interventions, which are expected to take from 18 to 24 months.

The P-3C Orion is a maritime patrol aircraft, produced in its first
model in the late 1950s by the Lockheed Martin Corporation, which
played an important role in the Cold War and are presently employed
among other in reconnaissance operations in the Iraq conflict. These
four-engine turboprops are expected to be gradually replaced by
Boeing's P-8A Poseidons, but the Navy counts to continue using the
P-3s until 2019. Therefore careful and periodical maintenance
activities will be needed.

Another model of aircraft of the US armed forces to have recently
showed signs of fatigue has been the F-15 jet fighter (see AVIONEWS).
(Avionews)
************************************************** *************************-******************************
How long can our guys be expected to hold the line with these ancient
airplanes?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

What? You are complaining about the military being frugal with your
tax dollars? I suspect that the P-3 has had one of the best returns
on initial investment of the various airplane programs out there...

Dean

wrote in

:

What? You are complaining about the military being frugal with
your tax dollars? I suspect that the P-3 has had one of the best
returns on initial investment of the various airplane programs out
there...

Probably up there with the C-130

--

What? You are complaining about the military being frugal with your
tax dollars? I suspect that the P-3 has had one of the best returns
on initial investment of the various airplane programs out there...

Agreed, it's been a good aircraft. But the time has come -- and gone
-- to replace it.

Military spending is one of the very few legitimate purposes for
having a Federal government. I have no quarrel with spending tax
money to keep our Air Force modern.

As it is, the Air Force has been reduced to such a tiny size that
there are legitimate arguments being made to roll it back into the
Army. With so few planes and bases, there is little rationale for
having an independent Air Force, with all the dead-weight bureacracy
that comes with it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"