Flapped Glider Recommendations...

On Jan 8, 8:50 am, "
wrote:
Not a bird of the same flock, but how about a Pilatus B4 ? Goes for
around 16K +/- Metal ship, lots of fun, and you can leave it tied
out.
Doug

Doug -

Thanks, but my Russia is no trouble at all to rig; so a metal glider I
can tie out isn't a compelling argument to me. Also, it has a similar
sink-rate and almost the same glide. If I'm going to pay the taxes
and fees to switch gliders, I really want around 38:1 or better, as I
feel that performance jump would justify the expenditure. An increase
of only 2 or 3 points in glide over my AC-4 is not enough.

Someone suggested a used 13m Apis (36:1), and that is tempting. We
already have 2 locally and they do quite well. Its right on the
bubble in terms of the amount of performance I want; but sadly I think
the limited availability plus the high cost of a new one (again with
the damn weak dollar) will push the sales price of a used Apis 13m out
of my budget anyways.

Take care,

--Noel

I owned a reasonably nice PIK-20B for a few years. It was the carbon
winged version and was easy to rig. The trailer wasn't all that great,
but could easily have been improved. I did a few things to it to make
it easier. I seldom spent more than 20 minutes rigging it including
taping and a positive control check. I agree with the previous poster
that they are about the best bang for the buck, if you can find a nice
one. Probably the very best thing about a PIK is the polyurethane
finish. Mine was still in excellent shape after 32 years. No gel coat
to crack and craze.

Jack

noel.wade wrote:
On Jan 8, 8:50 am, "
wrote:
Not a bird of the same flock, but how about a Pilatus B4 ? Goes for
around 16K +/- Metal ship, lots of fun, and you can leave it tied
out.
Doug

Doug -

Thanks, but my Russia is no trouble at all to rig; so a metal glider I
can tie out isn't a compelling argument to me.

Others may not agree, but IME the Pilatus isn't all that easy to rig.
I've assisted to rig the local one a few times. Its not difficult but it
is finicky. The fit between the wing pickup points and the drag links is
only a few thou, so it takes jiggling to get the wings in place and
while this is going on the people on the tips MUST NOT lower them or the
non-removable lower surface root fairings get bent and the pilot will
not be a happy bunny. Like an ASH-25 or a G103, its a glider I'm happy
to avoid rigging.

Add that to your list: as well as a good trailer (tows well, is dry, is
easy to rig and de-rig from) the glider should not be one that people
avoid having to rig.

In a similar vein, I reckon that ASW-19, 20, Pegase and LS gliders rig
easily while a Discus is harder. IOW, generally I prefer dual wing pin
systems because the first wing can't get punted out by the second.
Notable exceptions are Libelles and Kestrels: these are all single pin
systems but the spar stubs are fully exposed so you can see exactly
what's going on rather than groveling inside the fuselage/peering
through holes while trying to get the alignment right. The unusual
Mosquito / mini-Nimbus system with its single load bearing pin at one
side of the fuselage is pretty easy to rig too.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I've been following this post with some interest as I used to own a
Russia AC-4c. I moved up to a Zuni II and also 1/2 of an LS-8. Last
year, I took a club member on a drag and drop. He flew my Zuni with
me in the LS-8. After a decent 200km flight, we were on a final glide
home. After 26 miles at 80-90 kts, the Zuni was 1000' lower than the
LS-8. So 5 times the price will get you a 1000' in 26 miles. The
Zuni will also thermal with a PW5. There is now another Zuni on the
field at Tucson. I really enjoy my Zuni.

Randy "AV8"

On Jan 10, 8:58*am, LOV2AV8 wrote:
I've been following this post with some interest as I used to own a
Russia AC-4c. *I moved up to a Zuni II and also 1/2 of an LS-8. *Last

Thanks, Randy!

As far as specs and performance and looks, I like the Zuni II. I just
really did not like the all-flying-tail coupled with the push/pull
stick arrangement. Plus, the flap crank-handle interfered with my
leg. :-/

I am in agreeance with you as well, that the large extra cost of newer
gliders only nets you a small performance gain. However, it does get
you a better surface finish (usually), probably a nicer trailer,
better cockpit safety & ergonomics, and other intangibles.

That's why I've set a budget, set certain benchmarks, and am looking
to maximize the glider I can get for that budget and with those
benchmarks (instead of purely looking for max performance, or purely
looking for the cheapest solution). :-) It makes things more
complicated; but also makes me a more happy owner in the end - or at
least that's the theory!!

Take care,

--Noel

if you can find one a Hornet, basicaly a mosquito fuselage
and libelle wings, full auto connect controls, solid
38/1, slightly dissapointing 2 part canopy, but if
you were realy lucky a C with carbon spars and lighter
wings and the Mosquito canopy. mine goes fine in your
English conditions

LS1f also 38/1

Speed Astir, decent gel, scratch well, not auto connect


DG100/101, very good in weak conditions, good gel

all 38.1

of the older flapped gliders the LS3/a is probably
the best in weak conditions

later Pegasus (90) have auto connects

possibly A ventus B or C 15m with the right winglets

Pete

At 22:07 08 January 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
noel.wade wrote:
On Jan 8, 8:50 am, '
wrote:
Not a bird of the same flock, but how about a Pilatus
B4 ? Goes for
around 16K +/- Metal ship, lots of fun, and you can
leave it tied
out.
Doug

Doug -

Thanks, but my Russia is no trouble at all to rig;
so a metal glider I
can tie out isn't a compelling argument to me.

Others may not agree, but IME the Pilatus isn't all
that easy to rig.
I've assisted to rig the local one a few times. Its
not difficult but it
is finicky. The fit between the wing pickup points
and the drag links is
only a few thou, so it takes jiggling to get the
wings in place and
while this is going on the people on the tips MUST
NOT lower them or the
non-removable lower surface root fairings get bent
and the pilot will
not be a happy bunny. Like an ASH-25 or a G103, its
a glider I'm happy
to avoid rigging.

Add that to your list: as well as a good trailer (tows
well, is dry, is
easy to rig and de-rig from) the glider should not
be one that people
avoid having to rig.

In a similar vein, I reckon that ASW-19, 20, Pegase
and LS gliders rig
easily while a Discus is harder. IOW, generally I prefer
dual wing pin
systems because the first wing can't get punted out
by the second.
Notable exceptions are Libelles and Kestrels: these
are all single pin
systems but the spar stubs are fully exposed so you
can see exactly
what's going on rather than groveling inside the fuselage/peering

through holes while trying to get the alignment right.
The unusual
Mosquito / mini-Nimbus system with its single load
bearing pin at one
side of the fuselage is pretty easy to rig too.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

OK, how's this for a switcheroo (hijacking my own thread!) - A couple
of people here stated that they thought I wouldn't see much of a
performance difference by going to a flapped ship in weak conditions.
A couple of local pilots with decades of experience have now also said
that. There's still a mental appeal to me in having a "complex"
glider - but if it'll get me a newer or nicer aircraft, I'm open to
the idea of a Standard-Class ship instead.

I've had a private email from someone suggesting an SZD-55 as a good
option (though I don't know if they'd be within my $30k budget limit).

Any other thoughts on what I could get in the Standard class for
around $25k - $30k? Priorities are still 38:1 minimum L/D, good weak-
weather performance (low sink-rate and/or great climb rate),
maneuverable/responsive in the air, and relatively easy to rig.

Honestly I haven't looked all that much... I'm not interested in old
beasts like the LS-1s or G102s or Standard Cirruses. A Libelle H-201,
eh (would probably go with a 301 at that point). How's the Pegasus in
light conditions? Any other weak-weather performers that folks would
recommend in the Standard Class?

Thanks a bunch for all the thoughts and advice!

--Noel

On Jan 8, 6:15*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
OK, how's this for a switcheroo (hijacking my own thread!) - A couple
of people here stated that they thought I wouldn't see much of a
performance difference by going to a flapped ship in weak conditions.
A couple of local pilots with decades of experience have now also said
that. *There's still a mental appeal to me in having a "complex"
glider - but if it'll get me a newer or nicer aircraft, I'm open to
the idea of a Standard-Class ship instead.

I've had a private email from someone suggesting an SZD-55 as a good
option (though I don't know if they'd be within my $30k budget limit).

Any other thoughts on what I could get in the Standard class for
around $25k - $30k? *Priorities are still 38:1 minimum L/D, good weak-
weather performance (low sink-rate and/or great climb rate),
maneuverable/responsive in the air, and relatively easy to rig.

Honestly I haven't looked all that much... *I'm not interested in old
beasts like the LS-1s or G102s or Standard Cirruses. *A Libelle H-201,
eh (would probably go with a 301 at that point). *How's the Pegasus in
light conditions? *Any other weak-weather performers that folks would
recommend in the Standard Class?

Thanks a bunch for all the thoughts and advice!

--Noel

That's an easy one. LS4 or DG300 will be your best bet for 30K.

Ramy

That's an easy one. LS4 or DG300 will be your best bet for 30K.

Ramy

Never seen an LS-4 for sale; and I *love* our two local DG-300's - but
the ones I've seen online seem to go for closer to $40k or $50k!
Thought they were out of my budget (unless people are asking for WAY
more than they're actually selling the aircraft for)...

--Noel

noel.wade wrote:
That's an easy one. LS4 or DG300 will be your best bet for 30K.

Ramy

Never seen an LS-4 for sale; and I *love* our two local DG-300's - but
the ones I've seen online seem to go for closer to $40k or $50k!
Thought they were out of my budget (unless people are asking for WAY
more than they're actually selling the aircraft for)...

The expensive ones you've seen are likely newer DG-303s. DG-300s sell
in the low to mid-30s these days. The DG-101 (aka DG-100G) is another
good choice, nice ones with Komet trailers sell in the mid-20s. They do
have manual hookups for spoilers and ailerons, but they're relatively
easy to see and manipulate.

Marc