Spin to impact AOA

On Jan 13, 5:33 pm, wrote:
Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes about 30 seconds - it's
really obvious. Training to use the ASI for pitch attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours of intensive training and
even then most pilots don't do it well.

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload, not increasing it.
An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater resolution. The EASY
way to fly is with an AOA. The HARD way is to do without it.

.

Bill Daniels

So, we are talking about pitch attitude control without reference to
the visible horizon. In that situation how do we control roll and
yaw?

The same way as we control roll and yaw in normal flight, since we
don't need a horizon to do this. Roll can be detected as long as there
is a reference in the distance we can see we are rolling with respect
to, and yaw can be detected using a yaw string or slip ball. Balanced
bank will always produce a turn, which can of course be seen as the
reference surface moving past the nose.

wrote in message
...


Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes about 30 seconds -
it's
really obvious. Training to use the ASI for pitch attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours of intensive training
and
even then most pilots don't do it well.

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload, not increasing it.
An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater resolution. The EASY
way to fly is with an AOA. The HARD way is to do without it.

.

Bill Daniels

So, we are talking about pitch attitude control without reference to
the visible horizon. In that situation how do we control roll and
yaw?

I wrote a confusing line. It should have said "controlling AOA with the ASI
and no relaible horizon is difficult."

By saying, "Attempting to use aircraft attitude (deck angle) without a
reliable horizon
will get you killed real fast" do you mean attempting to CONTROL
attitude, or attempting to DETERMINE aircraft attitude?

Does it matter? If you can't detemine attitude, you can't control it.

Bill D



Obviously, if you can't DETERMINE attitude, you can't CONTROL it.

On Jan 13, 9:05*am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
To tie Fred's comments about false horizons to the thread on mountain
flying, think about the situation when you descend into a mountain valley.
As you drop below the ridge line, you lose a useful horizon reference. *If
you keep the nose on the jagged line between ridge top and sky, your nose
will get higher and higher as you continue the decent - you have to point
the nose at some indeterminate point on the sides of the valley to maintain
the desired airspeed and prevent a stall.

This is a subtitle trap that snares many 'flatland' pilots on their first
mountain trip - usually in an overloaded Cessna 172 right after takeoff.
These pilots have learned to use the familiar, reliable horizon line at
their home airports. *It's always there and they have always relied heavily
on it. *Take it away, and their pilot skills evaporate.

It's quite possible to fly pitch attitude with reference to the airspeed
indicator but that's a instrument rated pilot *"partial panel" trick and
most pilots either aren't trained to do it or aren't good at it.

An AOA indicator solves the problem nicely.

Bill Daniels

"fredsez" wrote in message

...



So many good ideas on AoA. *Much thought and real considerationhas
have been expressed. Something (A-HA!) came to mind.
Visual indicators!
Back in 1901, *or some where about then, I flew a 1-26 to a really
high altitude. I had left the area of recognizable land and decided to
look at the ground and figure out where I was. Before I had that good
idea, I was looking right at the sun, well above the horizon.
Looking down, all I could see was black! The land was in definate
NIGHT TIME!
I have always been a FLAT EARTH person. I have also watched the sun go
around the earth! I get up with the sun in the east and go to bed with
it setting in the west.
From umpteen thousand ft, I spotted a little (very little) strip of
light. There was where I decided they would find my body. I opened the
airbrakes and managed to find a lighted strip of asphalt at an
intersection in Nevada.
The rest of the story is interesting (to me) but has little to do
with AoA.

At my air strip, when you turn onto base leg, the ground rises, *With
the horizon high, pilots tend to raise the nose to see a normal sight
picture. Airspeed slows,.. things don't look right and some push
rudder to point the nose down the runway...or at the tie-down area.

At thousands of ft in the air, the horizon looks low relative to the
instrument panel. At pattern altitude, the horizon looks higher and
may lead a pilot to raise the nose, losing airspeed in the turn onto
final. I need to make changes. What should I do? Maybe reverse the
pattern and let pilots see the lower horizon and tend to make them let
the nose down? Maybe I ought to go to bed and let things be as they
will be.
Fred.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chuckle .........That's what I do when I see Fred here...haha

Doesn't anyone use trim anymore? Some good aircraft fly best when they
are not being touched.
Some of them even thermal well by themselves.with a good trim setting.
In the Blanik it used to be all the way back. When teaching beginners,
I would show them how well aircraft fly by themselves.

Guess as an old mtn-pilot, that's what I have always used: Trim and
airspeed x-check. The 1-26, even in 1901 must have had a decent trim
tab? Never owned one, but in the 2-33 I always remember yelling to the
student in front" And now...trim forward. For some it would take a
while to figure that out with that funny latch. With it all the way
forward that bird would hurry home nicely. Of course one have to let
it, and not use your biceps much.

Coming back to the Blanik ...a little more advanced, after thermaling
tightly with trim al the way back. If the pilot would forget to
readjust the trim for level flight one could find oneself in a stall-
spin situation! Teaching in the Blanik I would do that some time,
sneak the trim slowly back. A student with a touch or feel would
notice, also eye for airspeed. Muscel people would make a spin entry.

Yeah Fred, didn't we have fun?

Dieter Gliders Of Aspen

[Not answering directly to this poster]

Consider the yaw string. How much simpler it is and
how much quicker it responds than the ball slip/skid
indicator. An proper AoA indicator should behave just
like the yaw string, and would give better information
than the ASI. Arguments that we should ignore AoA
possibilities are effectively the same as saying we
should go back to the ball. It can be done, but it
is nowhere near as easy to fly with as the yaw string.

If a good, reliable, effective, and inexpensive one
is developed, I'll buy it. I've toyed with strings
on the side of the canopy and I like what I see.

At 00:36 14 January 2008, wrote:


Mat, training yourself to use an AOA indicator takes
about 30 seconds - it=
's
really obvious. =A0Training to use the ASI for pitch
attitude without
reference to the visible horizon takes many hours
of intensive training an=
d
even then most pilots don't do it well.

AOA indicators are about reducing information overload,
not increasing it.=

An AOA indicator IS a stall warning with far greater
resolution. =A0The EA=
SY
way to fly is with an AOA. =A0The HARD way is to do
without it.

.

Bill Daniels

So, we are talking about pitch attitude control without
reference to
the visible horizon. In that situation how do we control
roll and
yaw?

By saying, 'Attempting to use aircraft attitude (deck
angle) without a
reliable horizon
will get you killed real fast' do you mean attempting
to CONTROL
attitude, or attempting to DETERMINE aircraft attitude?
Matt

At 05:36 14 January 2008, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nope! We're not after an attitude indicator; we are
talking about a relative wind indicator.

We could call it something catchy, like an 'artificial
horizon'! Well,
maybe that's a simple way to get an attitude indicator
that's
commercially available for a $1000 or so, solid state
so power
consumption is low, and easily installed. It might
indicate the AOA
accurately enough in steady flight for performance
optimizing. Anyone
tried it?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
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www.motorglider.org