The Differences Between PPLicensing And Learning

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:41:49 -0500, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:30:52 GMT, Steve Foley wrote:

There are plenty of examples. The ones that jump out at me
are the landing accidents that often don't hit the headlines,
accidents caused by poor training. Landing fast and flat, running off
the end, ballooning and stalling and landing hard. Accelerated stalls
caused by pulling back hard after a buzz job. (Those are usually fatal
and hit the newspapers.) Failing to understand DA and trying to depart
an inadequate runway. A really common one is carb ice; we hear of
accidents/incidents all the time due to that one. It's not well taught
or understood. And, of course as you mentioned, VFR into IMC.

Dan


If this were truly a lack of training, I would expect to see more of these
types of accidents immediately after getting a certificate.

If you did, you would argue that it was a lack of experience not training
to make it fit your argument.

He's correct. According to the safety literature I've read they figure
those type of accidents would show up soon. BUT OTOH IIRC they figure
the highest accident rate happens somewhere between 300 and 500 hours.

It's a bit more complex figuring out the reasoning though.
There are many reasons for the rate peaking in this range.


When they occur years later, I can't see how they can be attributed to
inadequate training from years ago.

Wouldn't that depend on what was learned in the training, or better yet,
not learned?

Not necessarily. If they made it that far then their training was
most likely adequate. Unfortunately it's more of an individual thing.
One student may solo in 10 hours, pass the PTS in 40 hours and become
an exemplary pilot. Another may take 40 to solo, a 100 for the PTS
and also do great. OTOH you most likely can find examples to the
contrary as well. It depends on the student and the instructor, not
the hours.

That a student can do everything in the minimum of time and hours says
more about their abilities than lack of proper training. Where one
student can handle 3 or 4 hours of flying a week another may not be
able to handle more than a couple before mental overload sets in.
That it takes one three or four times as long to solo or pass the test
than another is no direct indication of how much or how well either
learned the material.

I know of one student who did great, then suffered a brain fart coming
in to land. He got too low, applied full power, nose came up, he
pulled the power and turned it into a lawn dart. Put shoulders in the
wings of that 150. Some more training, he took and passed the PTS
with flying colors (no pun intended). A year later (minus one day),
he suffered another brain fart on short final, applied power, ended up
too fast, and turned that one into a lawn dart as well.

Attitude plays as much a part in this as does training. After flying
for a while we all get used to doing things a particular way. Bad
habits can develop, and so can the attitude that the pilot knows
everything needed. That is why the FAA came up with the biennial
"flight review". It's also why insurance companies give preferential
rates for taking re currency training.

I happen to be one of those who soloed in a short time and got the
license in just a few months, but I am also one who continued to
practice all the maneuvers I had to learn plus those required for the
commercial license. BTW, my ground school was a 4 credit hour college
course. Those were regular credits and not continued learning.
After my initial solo flights I was allowed to practice all maneuvers
and I did instead of just going out sightseeing. To me the maneuvers
were as much fun as playing. They were playing and I enjoyed them.


I think most good pilots agree that a private certificate is really a
license to learn.

The Differences Between PPLicensing And Learning /is/ the Subject of the
thread.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Feb 28, 4:11*am, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
I have been reading the various threads about spins, forced landings, etc
and talking with CFIs. The road to a PPL is preset in requirements by FAA.
I see that most people are happy to do nothing more than that. Outside of
the cost factors, I find this much more than curious considering the
consequences. You can get killed, that one keeps jumping out at me

I am asking the group for assistance in developing a list of instructional
and solo experiences, testing, mandatory reading.....if you ran the FAA,
what would you require in a near-perfect world that a PPL would require? I
am a zero-hour wannabe pilot FYI

For a start, I won't begin my first instruction until I can do the
following:

Pass all tests with a 95% minimum
Handle with ease all traffic control and similar commo
Dissect the anatomy of my training aircraft
Understand what and how the instrumentation works (shortcomings included)
Own all the fundamentally necessary flight gear (i.e carry-ons in flight
bag or on person)
Obtain hours in flight simulation
More...enough for now.

TIA. The group is an extremely valuable resource; I sincerely doubt I would
be so focused and confident without your past, present and future work
here.
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For your written, I recommend the King's video and computer test prep
set. They were boring, but was watchable. The practice test was
very helpful. After spending on average 1-2 hours a day in 15-20
intervals I got 95% on the test. The test itself only took me 15-20
minutes to complete. I think I would have gotten a 100% if I wasn't
so overly confident. I rushed thru it.

Wil

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:35:14 -0800 (PST), William Hung wrote:

For your written, I recommend the King's video and computer test prep
set. They were boring, but was watchable. The practice test was
very helpful. After spending on average 1-2 hours a day in 15-20
intervals I got 95% on the test. The test itself only took me 15-20
minutes to complete. I think I would have gotten a 100% if I wasn't
so overly confident. I rushed thru it.

Wil

Thanks, I have heard more or less the same. What would you recommend that
/isn't/ test oriented (reading, testing and other materials); that is
learning oriented without regard to the test results?
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WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Thanks, I have heard more or less the same. What would you recommend that
/isn't/ test oriented (reading, testing and other materials); that is
learning oriented without regard to the test results?

If haven't purchased any books or training materials yet I'd
recommend a complete package like the ASA Private Pilot Kit.
There are two versions of it, one for Part 61 and one for Part 141
but the 141 kit is better because the textbooks included are
more comprehensive if you are into studying on your own. Here's
a link to that: http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/2713

Of course you can buy the items in that kit separately but you
really need all of them. There are a number of FAA publications
that are very good and can be downloaded in PDF format from
he http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/

--

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:32:44 GMT, kontiki wrote:

WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Thanks, I have heard more or less the same. What would you recommend that
/isn't/ test oriented (reading, testing and other materials); that is
learning oriented without regard to the test results?

If haven't purchased any books or training materials yet I'd
recommend a complete package like the ASA Private Pilot Kit.
There are two versions of it, one for Part 61 and one for Part 141
but the 141 kit is better because the textbooks included are
more comprehensive if you are into studying on your own. Here's
a link to that: http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/2713

Of course you can buy the items in that kit separately but you
really need all of them. There are a number of FAA publications
that are very good and can be downloaded in PDF format from
he http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/

Thanks, the FAA stuff I pulled, printed and the ASA I purchased.
Self-taught works for me, it fits my work (IT), home office environ, my
learning style and my preferences.
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Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
...

Of course you can buy the items in that kit separately but you
really need all of them. There are a number of FAA publications
that are very good and can be downloaded in PDF format from
he http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/

Thanks, the FAA stuff I pulled, printed and the ASA I purchased.
Self-taught works for me, it fits my work (IT), home office environ, my
learning style and my preferences.

The ASA textbook will teach you everything you need to know that doesn't
require being in the airplane to learn it. You don't need to have
mastered all of it before you solo, and it doesn't sound like you'll make
the mistake of putting the textbooks away once you've passed the written.

When people here talking about getting it done quickly or in as little
flight time as possible, it's important to distinguish between license mills
and people who just want to provide -EFFICIENT- training. There's no point
in drilling holes in the sky if you're not learning in the process.
An -effective and efficient- training program will get you through in a
shorter time because less training time will have been wasted, not because
your training is being short-changed.

-c

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:35:14 -0800 (PST), William Hung wrote:

For your written, I recommend the King's video and computer test prep
set. They were boring, but was watchable. The practice test was
very helpful. After spending on average 1-2 hours a day in 15-20
intervals I got 95% on the test. The test itself only took me 15-20
minutes to complete. I think I would have gotten a 100% if I wasn't
so overly confident. I rushed thru it.

Wil

Thanks, I have heard more or less the same. What would you recommend that
/isn't/ test oriented (reading, testing and other materials); that is
learning oriented without regard to the test results?

The Jeppeson Private Pilot book is good. Also, Machado is enormously
popular: http://www.rodmachado.com/

Plenty of others and I'm probably missing a couple of authors who are on
this forum. I recommend them as well. :

-c

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:33:58 -0800, gatt wrote:

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:35:14 -0800 (PST), William Hung wrote:

For your written, I recommend the King's video and computer test prep
set. They were boring, but was watchable. The practice test was
very helpful. After spending on average 1-2 hours a day in 15-20
intervals I got 95% on the test. The test itself only took me 15-20
minutes to complete. I think I would have gotten a 100% if I wasn't
so overly confident. I rushed thru it.

Wil

Thanks, I have heard more or less the same. What would you recommend that
/isn't/ test oriented (reading, testing and other materials); that is
learning oriented without regard to the test results?

The Jeppeson Private Pilot book is good. Also, Machado is enormously
popular: http://www.rodmachado.com/

Plenty of others and I'm probably missing a couple of authors who are on
this forum. I recommend them as well. :

-c

Didn't have this resource and, yeah, I got my credit card and eye on a
couple or more here in the groups who I will fail to mention as my
contribution to their ego-checks. lol
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"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
...

Pass all tests with a 95% minimum

That's a good goal, but, if you sweat it too much you'll never get your
rating. -Most- of the stuff you miss on the written, if you're scoring
above, say, 85%, you'll pick up in training anyway.

Handle with ease all traffic control and similar commo

That'll save you a little money, but, you learn all that during the lessons
anyway.

Dissect the anatomy of my training aircraft

Always good. It makes flying the airplane a lot richer of an experience.

Understand what and how the instrumentation works (shortcomings included)

That's part of ground school (as is most of the above.) You will learn it
all before you solo one way or the other.

Own all the fundamentally necessary flight gear (i.e carry-ons in flight
bag or on person)

That'll take care of itself when you start training. There's a whole lot
of crap for sale that pilots generally don't need.

-c

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:15:21 -0800, gatt wrote:

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
...

Pass all tests with a 95% minimum

That's a good goal, but, if you sweat it too much you'll never get your
rating. -Most- of the stuff you miss on the written, if you're scoring
above, say, 85%, you'll pick up in training anyway.

Handle with ease all traffic control and similar commo

That'll save you a little money, but, you learn all that during the lessons
anyway.

Dissect the anatomy of my training aircraft

Always good. It makes flying the airplane a lot richer of an experience.

Understand what and how the instrumentation works (shortcomings included)

That's part of ground school (as is most of the above.) You will learn it
all before you solo one way or the other.

Own all the fundamentally necessary flight gear (i.e carry-ons in flight
bag or on person)

That'll take care of itself when you start training. There's a whole lot
of crap for sale that pilots generally don't need.

-c

Good advice, thanks for your time.
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