Teaching Incremental Flaps in the Pattern

On Mar 4, 1:43 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
Would this specific instruction include full flaps abeam the numbers? With
any airplane? I think the "hard on the motor" argument is bogus. Beech
doesn't build airplanes with pre-loaded failure modes.

Bob Gardner


Apparently people with much more Beechcraft experience than I assert
that on-off-on is hard on that flap motor. The piano keys certainly
aren't designed to facilitate that method, either.

Dan

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:33:14 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 1:43 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
Would this specific instruction include full flaps abeam the numbers? With
any airplane? I think the "hard on the motor" argument is bogus. Beech
doesn't build airplanes with pre-loaded failure modes.

Bob Gardner


Apparently people with much more Beechcraft experience than I assert
that on-off-on is hard on that flap motor. The piano keys certainly
aren't designed to facilitate that method, either.

You get used to it. The switch will probably fail long before the
flap motor.



Dan


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 10:43:58 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

Would this specific instruction include full flaps abeam the numbers? With
any airplane? I think the "hard on the motor" argument is bogus. Beech
doesn't build airplanes with pre-loaded failure modes.

Agreed.
As I said in another post. 1300 hours, two sets of tires and no
problems with the flap motor. Nor have I ever seen any bulletins on
flap motor problems. At one time there was an AD about split flaps
but it was rescinded as they have more than enough aileron authority
to overcome a full split flap situation. (Might be exciting
thoughg)


Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 9:07 am, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
I am reluctant to teach anything that should "always" be used.

I agree with you in principle but from a practical point student
pilots need to start with very, very specific instruction before they
have the tools and expand into these types of judgements. If you don't
give students specific airspeeds to hit in the pattern they will
always have problems with landings. 9 times out of 10 when a student
pilot is having trouble landing all I do is sit in the right seat and
say "ok, what speed are you suppose to be at here?" and let them do
the rest.

-Robert
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Bob Gardner wrote:
I am reluctant to teach anything that should "always" be used. Flaps are a
tool, and we learn early on in life that there are many ways to use a tool
to achieve different results.

I agree. I usually use multiple flap extensions at my home airport. Lots
of student traffic, so there's really no point in slowing down early and
flying a wide pattern behind a bunch of students emulating 747s. On the
other hand, when I fly into small strips with tall obstructions, I drop full
flaps abeam and fly a slow, tight, steep pattern all the way around. It
makes speed control a lot easier in tight places. Different procedures for
different conditions.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

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Message posted via AviationKB.com
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On Mar 4, 1:11 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:

I agree. I usually use multiple flap extensions at my home airport. Lots
of student traffic, so there's really no point in slowing down early and
flying a wide pattern behind a bunch of students emulating 747s. On the
other hand, when I fly into small strips with tall obstructions, I drop full
flaps abeam and fly a slow, tight, steep pattern all the way around. It
makes speed control a lot easier in tight places. Different procedures for
different conditions.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Wait -- why would your second method cause you to "Slow down and fly a
wide pattern"?

It seems the second method would suit nearly every condition -- big
airport, lots of traffic -- get down and get off the runway. Small
airport, small runway, get down and stop with room to spare.


Dan

wrote:

Wait -- why would your second method cause you to "Slow down and fly a
wide pattern"?


The traffic at the airport necessitates flying a relatively large crowded
pattern. There's no real point dropping full flaps and slowing down to
approach speed if you're going to be flying a big pattern behind several
other aircraft. For me, it works out better to keep the speed up and slow
incrementally, depending on what the traffic ahead is doing.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200803/1

On Mar 5, 1:29 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:
wrote:

Wait -- why would your second method cause you to "Slow down and fly a
wide pattern"?

The traffic at the airport necessitates flying a relatively large crowded
pattern. There's no real point dropping full flaps and slowing down to
approach speed if you're going to be flying a big pattern behind several
other aircraft. For me, it works out better to keep the speed up and slow
incrementally, depending on what the traffic ahead is doing.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.comhttp://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200803/1

In that case, I see the point. "Extend your final" means I'm
maintaining my downwind airspeed and altitude until I hear "Follow the
Mooney on Final."

I'm no longer in a standard pattern, and so the full flaps come later
-- probably on final. The question remains -- why not full flaps
instead of incremental flaps?


Dan

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:11:59 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
u32749@uwe wrote:

Bob Gardner wrote:
I am reluctant to teach anything that should "always" be used. Flaps are a
tool, and we learn early on in life that there are many ways to use a tool
to achieve different results.

I agree. I usually use multiple flap extensions at my home airport. Lots
of student traffic, so there's really no point in slowing down early and
flying a wide pattern behind a bunch of students emulating 747s. On the
other hand, when I fly into small strips with tall obstructions, I drop full
flaps abeam and fly a slow, tight, steep pattern all the way around. It

Why? The Bo is a great short field airplane that can slow rapidly. I
fly down wind pretty much the same. If it's tight, I dump the gear at
the end of the runway. From that point I use the appropriate amount of
flaps and size my pattern accordingly.(With full flaps it'll be short
and close) If necessary I can go full flaps (40 degrees on those big
barn doors is EFFECTIVE) right after gear down as it'll slow so
quickly with the gear down the flap speed is no problem. At that point
I can simply make a slipping U-turn from pattern altitude on a *close*
down wind to the end of the runway and my speed will be down to less
than 80 at the round out. With practice I can make it over the so
called 50 foot obstacle, at the end of the runway and still make the
first turnoff at 800 feet when alone. That PA28-180 can do it in
even less distance with those Johnson bar flaps.

makes speed control a lot easier in tight places. Different procedures for
different conditions.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)
BTW the Deb has the same wing loading as the PA28-180 give or take
change (17#/ ft^2. The earlier V35s had even less.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 5, 4:22*am, " wrote:
I just read an interesting argument by Lew Gauge in his E-185 Bonanza
book.

Some background -- the older Bonanzas (straight 35) have a "Flap"
switch. There's no increments unless you stop the motor as the flaps
are being dropped. Apparently it's hard on that design to start-stop
the motor.

Lew said there's no reason to teach incremental flaps in small
airplanes -- and that multiple flap applications just add to the
workload with no advantage-- apply 10 degrees, trim, apply 10 more,
trim, etc.

His argument is that if the sequence is always the same -- gear down,
trim, flaps down, trim -- the approaches will be consistent and reduce
the likelihood of a gear-up landing (since the descent profile with
15" MP and full flaps gear up is very close to 15"+ full flaps + gear
down).

The more I think about this the more it makes sense, except in the
partial flap case (though an argument can be made that there's no
reason to ever go partial -- but that's another topic).

I'm sure this will be contentious, but isn't that the point?


I think in a 172R Vfe for 10 flaps is 110, and 85 for more. So maybe
stages make sense, in that case?

Cheers

On Mar 4, 10:27 pm, WingFlaps wrote:
On Mar 5, 4:22 am, " wrote:



I just read an interesting argument by Lew Gauge in his E-185 Bonanza
book.

Some background -- the older Bonanzas (straight 35) have a "Flap"
switch. There's no increments unless you stop the motor as the flaps
are being dropped. Apparently it's hard on that design to start-stop
the motor.

Lew said there's no reason to teach incremental flaps in small
airplanes -- and that multiple flap applications just add to the
workload with no advantage-- apply 10 degrees, trim, apply 10 more,
trim, etc.

His argument is that if the sequence is always the same -- gear down,
trim, flaps down, trim -- the approaches will be consistent and reduce
the likelihood of a gear-up landing (since the descent profile with
15" MP and full flaps gear up is very close to 15"+ full flaps + gear
down).

The more I think about this the more it makes sense, except in the
partial flap case (though an argument can be made that there's no
reason to ever go partial -- but that's another topic).

I'm sure this will be contentious, but isn't that the point?

I think in a 172R Vfe for 10 flaps is 110, and 85 for more. So maybe
stages make sense, in that case?

Cheers

Perhaps, but I think it High Vfe can lead to sloppy piloting (so does
high Vle). Instead of planning the approach and entering the pattern
at the proper airspeed, we depend on the flaps and gear to slow us
down.

This is hard on the gear and can be downright ruinous in an airplane
that is not so forgiving.

Dan