Audio of Lancaster Under nightfighter attack

In message , "Gord
writes
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

I was able to make out the serial on the aft fuselage. It's
definitely a Lanc. (Although if it _were_ a Manchester, that would
explain the lack of engine noise.

Sure...two engines vice four...

I have to agree with you, Gord. While I don't have any flights in a
Lancaster, I've seen and heard one, and I've flown/ridden in teh C-47,
C-123, C-131 (Recip Cosmo), and C-118 (DC-6), and the one common
denominator is the constant noise and vibration. Even when the noise
is cut back by the headsets, the vibration's always there. I can't
see any sort of the disk-cutters they used back then being isolated
from that. While the Germans had made an early form of tape recorder,
it wasn't a practical or portable system, using what were essentially
bandsaw blades moved at high speed as the recording medium.

Quite true, and here's another possibility(?) for a recording
medium...The Lancs that we had in the early/mid fifties were
equipped with a 'magnetic wire recorder'. They were used to
record the sonobuoys audio output of underwater sounds. Do you
suppose they may have had those during the war years?...Ours was
a cute lil guy about 1,5 feet long, 8 inches high by 4 inches
wide. You could see the two wire spools through the glass in the
front loading door, The wire looked very thin and looked like
shiny steel. (be aware that the memory of those measurements etc
is some 50 years old!)

Wirex?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

I was able to make out the serial on the aft fuselage. It's
definitely a Lanc. (Although if it _were_ a Manchester, that would
explain the lack of engine noise.

Sure...two engines vice four...

I have to agree with you, Gord. While I don't have any flights in a
Lancaster, I've seen and heard one, and I've flown/ridden in teh C-47,
C-123, C-131 (Recip Cosmo), and C-118 (DC-6), and the one common
denominator is the constant noise and vibration. Even when the noise
is cut back by the headsets, the vibration's always there. I can't
see any sort of the disk-cutters they used back then being isolated
from that. While the Germans had made an early form of tape recorder,
it wasn't a practical or portable system, using what were essentially
bandsaw blades moved at high speed as the recording medium.

Quite true, and here's another possibility(?) for a recording
medium...The Lancs that we had in the early/mid fifties were
equipped with a 'magnetic wire recorder'. They were used to
record the sonobuoys audio output of underwater sounds. Do you
suppose they may have had those during the war years?...Ours was
a cute lil guy about 1,5 feet long, 8 inches high by 4 inches
wide. You could see the two wire spools through the glass in the
front loading door, The wire looked very thin and looked like
shiny steel. (be aware that the memory of those measurements etc
is some 50 years old!)

Sorry for taking so long, but...
I did some checking, and I'd be very surprised if any airborne audio
recordings from that era were made on Wire Recorders. While the basic
idea of Wire Recorders had been around since the 1920s, the recorders
were refrigerator-sized monstrosities that had really lousy frequency
bandwidth, and horrible signal/noise ratios. Some were built and sold
as telephone messaging systems, and some were used for dictation.
None were remotely portable. In mid 1943, advances in low-noise
amplifiers, and miniaturized vacuum tubes (valves) allowed Marvin
Camras, of the Armour Research Foundation to build a portable,
reliable wire recorder. The U.S. Navy ordered 1,000 ARF Wire
Recorders, to be lisence-built by G.E.
http://www.videointerchange.com/wire_recorder1.htm
is a good place to start. It seems that wire recorders had one
advantage over tapes - splicing was done with a square knot.

These military recorders were used as audio and analog data recirders
in large ASW and ELINT (Ferret) aircraft, and are, no doubt, the
direct ancestor of teh unit in your P2V. I'm willing to bet Local
Currency vs. Local Breakfast Pastry that there wasn't one used in a
Bomber Command Lancaster to record a Night Raid for the BBC.

As to the comment from another post in this thread, yes, lip mikes
existed, but that theory falls down on two points. If I'm remembering
things correctly, you can't just plug one into a system intended for
Carbon mikes - As I Seem To Recall, there are impedance matching
issues that require some manner of additional circuitry. It wouldn't
have been impossible, but I can't imagine the RAF restringing the
interphone system on a single Lancaster just to accomodate the
Propaganda Campaign. The other factor is that lip mikes and Oxygen
Masks don't mix. Bomber Command Lancs spent their missions at night
up past 18,000', and supplemental Oxygen is necessary t those heights,
and very useful at much lower altitudes. (The extra O2 increases night
vision). There should be 8 or 9 guys on that airplane, all waring
Oxygen masks, and all, at som epoint, talking on the intercom, with
the mask microphones. We ought to hear _somebody_ breathing,
dagnabbit!

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

http://www.videointerchange.com/wire_recorder1.htm
is a good place to start.

....and end too I'd say...everything that you ever wanted to know
about wire recoeders!...great source of clues indeed.

It seems that wire recorders had one
advantage over tapes - splicing was done with a square knot.

These military recorders were used as audio and analog data recirders
in large ASW and ELINT (Ferret) aircraft, and are, no doubt, the
direct ancestor of teh unit in your P2V.

Actually, it was in our Lancs that I saw them, mind you, this was
in the early fifties...

I'm willing to bet Local
Currency vs. Local Breakfast Pastry that there wasn't one used in a
Bomber Command Lancaster to record a Night Raid for the BBC.

I tend to agree...your article seems to affirm that.

As to the comment from another post in this thread, yes, lip mikes
existed, but that theory falls down on two points. If I'm remembering
things correctly, you can't just plug one into a system intended for
Carbon mikes - As I Seem To Recall, there are impedance matching
issues that require some manner of additional circuitry.

Quite true Peter, most modern intercom systems use dynamic
mics...better fidelity...less noise.


It wouldn't
have been impossible, but I can't imagine the RAF restringing the
interphone system on a single Lancaster just to accomodate the
Propaganda Campaign. The other factor is that lip mikes and Oxygen
Masks don't mix. Bomber Command Lancs spent their missions at night
up past 18,000', and supplemental Oxygen is necessary t those heights,
and very useful at much lower altitudes. (The extra O2 increases night
vision). There should be 8 or 9 guys on that airplane, all waring
Oxygen masks, and all, at som epoint, talking on the intercom, with
the mask microphones. We ought to hear _somebody_ breathing,
dagnabbit!

And more than that oxygen masks mics sound very hollow and
muffled, They're much harder to understand than either carbon or
dynamic mics...no way these guys were wearing oxygen masks.

Mind you, they could have been bombing from lower level, but the
whole scenario just doesn't jell with me. I just cannot listen to
the audio and imagine that it's coming from a Lanc crew on a
bombing run...even factoring in the near 50 year time lapse it
still doesn't impress me as being plausible.

My memory of those years is crystal clear...
--

-Gord.

In message , Peter Stickney
writes

snip

As to the comment from another post in this thread, yes, lip mikes
existed, but that theory falls down on two points. If I'm remembering
things correctly, you can't just plug one into a system intended for
Carbon mikes - As I Seem To Recall, there are impedance matching
issues that require some manner of additional circuitry. It wouldn't
have been impossible, but I can't imagine the RAF restringing the
interphone system on a single Lancaster just to accomodate the
Propaganda Campaign.

The lip mic would have fed the small mixer unit at the recorder. The a/c
intercom would be another input, suitably padded down.

The other factor is that lip mikes and Oxygen
Masks don't mix.

Yes, I imagined WVT using an oxygen mask until he wanted to speak then
unclipping, saying his stuff, then clipping back up.
d
Bomber Command Lancs spent their missions at night
up past 18,000', and supplemental Oxygen is necessary t those heights,
and very useful at much lower altitudes. (The extra O2 increases night
vision). There should be 8 or 9 guys on that airplane, all waring
Oxygen masks, and all, at som epoint, talking on the intercom, with
the mask microphones. We ought to hear _somebody_ breathing,
dagnabbit!

Was it common practice to stay switched off until you wanted to say
something?

In my recording, there is no breathing audible. Everyone was 'off' until
speaking.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"M. J. Powell" wrote:


Was it common practice to stay switched off until you wanted to say
something?

In my recording, there is no breathing audible. Everyone was 'off' until
speaking.

Mike

Yes Mike, that's the drill, although for take-off and landing on
some aircraft the pilots and engineers are supposed to go to 'hot
mics'. I never liked hot mics much, lets too much noise into the
intercom. The left seat on The Argus was always on for landing
though and it was easy to see how hard he was working by the
sound of his breathing...kind of funny at times, nobody seems to
know how he sounds himself. That's another reason that the audio
sounded unreal, no mic clicks and 'hiss' indicating an open mic.
--

-Gord.

"Stolly" wrote in message
...
It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.

B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the
same day.

C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the
conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC

I dont think there's any doubt that Wynford Vaughan Thomas and a
BBC sound engineer did indeed fly that mission on an RAF
Lancaster, nor do I doubt that they did indeed record on that mission.

However its not impossible that AFTER the mission some dubbing
occurred to increase the audibility. I know for sure that some film
sequences were renacted for much the same reason, the famous
advance of the infantry at El-Alamein was in fact recorded some
time after the event in broad daylight with suitable filters on the
camera lens. This wasnt an attempt to bamboozle anybody it
was just a reflection of the technical limitations of the time.

I dont think anyone at the time would have regarded it as a
fake any more than using digital filtering would be regarded
as fakery today.

As for the time frame lets recall that that this was a period
when the BBC rooutinely produced live radio drama and
had a building full of actors at its disposal.

Keith

In message , Keith Willshaw
writes

snip

I dont think there's any doubt that Wynford Vaughan Thomas and a
BBC sound engineer did indeed fly that mission on an RAF
Lancaster, nor do I doubt that they did indeed record on that mission.

However its not impossible that AFTER the mission some dubbing
occurred to increase the audibility.

That sets me thinking about what audio tailoring the BBC had in those
days. Even some wireless sets had the usual top cut or bass boost
controls. I will ask on a B/C newsgroup and report back. There may be
some oldies around.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

I have been following this discussion with some interest and I also feel
that the recording is unlikely to be genuine. Not only is the lack of
noise a problem; I also have some difficulty in believing that the disc
cutting machinery at that time was capable of being sufficiently
isolated from the considerable vibration and G-forces due to combat
maneouvring.

Doctored, or even completely phony information for propaganda purposes
(and let's face it this was pure propaganda) were, and still are,
common. I used to have a recording of famous wartime speeches by
Churchill and other WWII leaders and on the notes was the comment that
some of the cuts were re-recordings due to the poor quality, or total
lack, of original recordings. Unfortunately I transferred this to tape
many years ago and no longer have the liner notes with the details, but
I am quite certain that at least one of them was a well known speech by
Churchill which was re-recorded in a BBC studio.

I'm tempted to consign this to the collection of "official" items
containing such things as "Cats Eyes Cunningham" and his carrots, which
was widely believed at the time; and probably still is by some.

It would seem likely that at least one person involved in this recording
is still alive and could provide the truth - unless it is covered by the
Official Secrets Act, as much WWII detail apparently still is.

Dave

"Dave Holford" wrote in message
...
I have been following this discussion with some interest and I also feel
that the recording is unlikely to be genuine. Not only is the lack of
noise a problem; I also have some difficulty in believing that the disc
cutting machinery at that time was capable of being sufficiently
isolated from the considerable vibration and G-forces due to combat
maneouvring.

Doctored, or even completely phony information for propaganda purposes
(and let's face it this was pure propaganda) were, and still are,
common. I used to have a recording of famous wartime speeches by
Churchill and other WWII leaders and on the notes was the comment that
some of the cuts were re-recordings due to the poor quality, or total
lack, of original recordings. Unfortunately I transferred this to tape
many years ago and no longer have the liner notes with the details, but
I am quite certain that at least one of them was a well known speech by
Churchill which was re-recorded in a BBC studio.

I'm tempted to consign this to the collection of "official" items
containing such things as "Cats Eyes Cunningham" and his carrots, which
was widely believed at the time; and probably still is by some.

It would seem likely that at least one person involved in this recording
is still alive and could provide the truth - unless it is covered by the
Official Secrets Act, as much WWII detail apparently still is.

Dave

I have to agree - only with modern DSP "anti-noise" technology could you
have filtered out all the engine noise.

Maybe a recording was attempted, found to be unuseable, and the resulting
script was then re-recorded in the studio. I don't think this was an attempt
to deceive though, just common practice at the time, as per Churchill's
speeches.

- Michael

"MichaelJP" wrote:


Maybe a recording was attempted, found to be unuseable, and the resulting
script was then re-recorded in the studio. I don't think this was an attempt
to deceive though, just common practice at the time, as per Churchill's
speeches.

- Michael

Certainly sounds plausable...

(sorry, couldn't resist)



--

-Gord.