ATC

Listening to Boston ATC at various times the Tower controller asks a flight
if they 'have got their numbers" (?) or a flight will say they're not ready
to proceed because they "don't have their numbers".
What does this mean as it doesnt translate here in the UK?
TIA

On 2008-03-28, Mike Gilmour wrote:
Listening to Boston ATC at various times the Tower controller asks a flight
if they 'have got their numbers" (?) or a flight will say they're not ready
to proceed because they "don't have their numbers".
What does this mean as it doesnt translate here in the UK?

This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and balance)
that the flight crew needs to enter into the flight management system. The
crew usually has that before they push back from the gate, but occasionally
the airline doesn't get it to them until later. They can't take off without
it, because they can't verify that the aircraft is within its center of
gravity range or that the accelerate-stop distance is shorter than the
available runway length.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

"Jay Maynard" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-28, Mike Gilmour wrote:
Listening to Boston ATC at various times the Tower controller asks a
flight
if they 'have got their numbers" (?) or a flight will say they're not
ready
to proceed because they "don't have their numbers".
What does this mean as it doesnt translate here in the UK?

This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and balance)
that the flight crew needs to enter into the flight management system. The
crew usually has that before they push back from the gate, but
occasionally
the airline doesn't get it to them until later. They can't take off
without
it, because they can't verify that the aircraft is within its center of
gravity range or that the accelerate-stop distance is shorter than the
available runway length.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)


Thanks Jay, it now makes perfect sense. It's interesting to know of the
variations in ATC speak in different locations.

Mike

Jay,

This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and balance)


Hmm. First I heard that explanation.

I would have thought they were referring to the ATIS as "the numbers" (not
"their"). It's quite common in the US to say "We've got the numbers" or "do
you have the numbers" when in ICAO English it should be "Information Quebec
(or whatever) received". But luckily, every holder of a US certificate is
ICAO English proficient by FAA definition.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jay Maynard wrote:
On 2008-03-28, Mike Gilmour wrote:
Listening to Boston ATC at various times the Tower controller asks a
flight if they 'have got their numbers" (?) or a flight will say
they're not ready to proceed because they "don't have their numbers".
What does this mean as it doesnt translate here in the UK?

This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and
balance) that the flight crew needs to enter into the flight
management system. The crew usually has that before they push back
from the gate, but occasionally the airline doesn't get it to them
until later. They can't take off without it, because they can't verify
that the aircraft is within its center of gravity range or that the
accelerate-stop distance is shorter than the available runway length.

The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight, balance,
or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is almost
certainly wrong.

ATC does, however, need to know if the pilot has the current ATIS
(Automated Terminal Information Service) information: ceiling,
visibility, wind, altimeter setting, runway in use, and any special
airport information.

The use of "have numbers" is mentioned in AIM section 4-1-13:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...4/aim0401.html

"While it is a good operating practice for pilots to make use of the
ATIS broadcast where it is available, some pilots use the phrase "have
numbers" in communications with the control tower. Use of this phrase
means that the pilot has received wind, runway, and altimeter
information ONLY and the tower does not have to repeat this information.
It does not indicate receipt of the ATIS broadcast and should never be
used for this purpose."

Jim Logajan wrote:


The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight, balance,
or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is almost
certainly wrong.

So if a flight was ready to push back,.. or number 2 or 3 for takeoff,
they wouldnt possibly decline a departure clearance or takeoff clearance
in the manner described?

Because we all know how people stick to exactly what the AIM and the
pilot controller glossary.. right?

The use of "have numbers" is mentioned in AIM section 4-1-13:

Use of this phrase
means that the pilot has received wind, runway, and altimeter
information ONLY and the tower does not have to repeat this information.

If they didn't have the numbers, as referenced in this manner, ATC could
just GIVE em the numbers and clear em anyways.. because we all know that
"have numbers" doesnt subsstitute for "having information alpha" or
bravo or whatever..

On 2008-03-28, Thomas Borchert wrote:
This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and balance)
I would have thought they were referring to the ATIS as "the numbers" (not
"their").

Thats why I was careful to see what the original query was. The ATIS doesn't
count as "their numbers"; the weight and balance info does.

FWIW, I was always taught to indicate I had the ATIS with, for example,
"Ellington Tower, Zodiac five five Zulu Charlie, inbound from the southeast
for landing with Foxtrot." "I have the numbers" is not sufficiently precise:
it doesn't tell them *which* numbers you have, and if the ATIS changes, they
need to know if you got the right ones.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

On 2008-03-28, Jim Logajan wrote:
The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight, balance,
or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is almost
certainly wrong.

You haven't had an airline flight pause on the taxiway waiting for this
information? I have, as recently as last week.

ATC would indeed care if the aircraft wasn't ready to go yet because it
couldn't legally depart. For them to ask if the crew had "their numbers" yet
(note, not "the numbers") would make sense if, for example, they were going
to hold off obtaining IFR release from Departure until the flight was ready,
and the crew had advised them they weren't because they hadn't gotten that
information.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

Dave S wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:


The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight, balance,
or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is almost
certainly wrong.

So if a flight was ready to push back,.. or number 2 or 3 for takeoff,
they wouldnt possibly decline a departure clearance or takeoff clearance
in the manner described?

The OP described two different transmissions - one from the ATC asking a
question and one presumably initiated by the aircraft. I'm still not sure
why ATC would ask or be interested in whether the aircraft has the sort of
numbers Jay mentions.

So you think Jay was almost certainly right and I am almost certainly
wrong? That is possible, but I'd like a bit of evidence that that is what
the alleged exchanges are all about.

Because we all know how people stick to exactly what the AIM and the
pilot controller glossary.. right?

Um, okay...

The use of "have numbers" is mentioned in AIM section 4-1-13:

Use of this phrase
means that the pilot has received wind, runway, and altimeter
information ONLY and the tower does not have to repeat this information.

If they didn't have the numbers, as referenced in this manner, ATC could
just GIVE em the numbers and clear em anyways.. because we all know that
"have numbers" doesnt subsstitute for "having information alpha" or
bravo or whatever..

Interesting analysis. I'll wait to see if those who have actual experience
with airlines see this thread and can shed light. Prior to the start of
this thread I already knew what I thought was the common meaning of "have
numbers" - which is even mentioned in the AIM, among other places. Are you
saying there is a different meaning in use? If so, is there a reference
that mentions it?

Jim Logajan wrote:
Jay Maynard wrote:

On 2008-03-28, Mike Gilmour wrote:

Listening to Boston ATC at various times the Tower controller asks a
flight if they 'have got their numbers" (?) or a flight will say
they're not ready to proceed because they "don't have their numbers".
What does this mean as it doesnt translate here in the UK?

This refers to the flight performance data (primarily, weight and
balance) that the flight crew needs to enter into the flight
management system. The crew usually has that before they push back
from the gate, but occasionally the airline doesn't get it to them
until later. They can't take off without it, because they can't verify
that the aircraft is within its center of gravity range or that the
accelerate-stop distance is shorter than the available runway length.


The poster said these were ATC transmissions, not internal company
communications. Since ATC doesn't concern itself with weight, balance,
or any other flight performance factors, your explanation is almost
certainly wrong.
/snip/
Jim, the answer Jay gave is almost certainly *correct*. ATC absolutely
cares about weight & balance, if, said aircraft is number one for
takeoff, but unable to do so since they don't have the necessary data.
Now you've got the guy at the front of the line holding up the whole
airport! I've heard several heated exchanges take place in these
situations between ATC and the offending airliner. If a ground
controller knows that a departing flight doesn't yet have their
"numbers", he may taxi them via an alternate route, so as not to
obstruct the other departures.

As for the ATIS "numbers", this is typically verified when the flight
receives it's IFR clearance, so Ground Control can assume they already
have this information.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane