Sky High Av gas **** you off?

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:50:55 -0400, "Birdog" wrote in
:

Being stupid is a good alternative if you don't want to bother to actually
learn the facts. As is being an environmentalist.

Catering to environmentalists may be more financially rewarding than
it is political. I look for photo voltaics to be the next dot-com
investment vogue.


It is only financially rewarding because it was made politically correct
to be an environmentalist.

"next dot-com investment vogue" you may be right but a lot of folks lost
a lot of money when that bubble burst.

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 15:09:25 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Catering to environmentalists may be more financially rewarding than
it is political. I look for photo voltaics to be the next dot-com
investment vogue.


It is only financially rewarding because it was made politically correct
to be an environmentalist.

Perhaps. But with the current record market prices for crude oil, you
can bet photo voltaics will become a lot more popular and attractive
to the general public as solar electricity becomes more competitive
with coal/natural gas/oil. While that won't directly relieve the
financial burden on pilots, in the long run it could reduce our
nation's dependency on petroleum based energy. That's got to be a
good thing for US independence from the whims of foreign nations as
well as being more environmentally friendly.


"next dot-com investment vogue" you may be right but a lot of folks lost
a lot of money when that bubble burst.

Doesn't that usually occur at the end of most of these popular
investment cycles?

Personally, I don't see the demand for energy slacking any time soon,
so I foresee a much longer investment cycle in the solar and wind
power marketplace.

Larry Dighera wrote:

Perhaps. But with the current record market prices for crude oil, you
can bet photo voltaics will become a lot more popular and attractive
to the general public as solar electricity becomes more competitive
with coal/natural gas/oil. While that won't directly relieve the
financial burden on pilots, in the long run it could reduce our
nation's dependency on petroleum based energy. That's got to be a
good thing for US independence from the whims of foreign nations as
well as being more environmentally friendly.

Non sequitur.

Electricity doesn't compete with oil and one has nothing to do with
the other in the existing, real world.

Coal is not oil and US coal comes from the US.

Natural gas is not oil and US natural gas comes from the US and Canada.

Personally, I don't see the demand for energy slacking any time soon,
so I foresee a much longer investment cycle in the solar and wind
power marketplace.

Until the subsidies run out like last time.


--
Jim Pennino

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Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

It is only financially rewarding because it was made politically correct
to be an environmentalist.

Depends on where you live and the specific issues. There are more types
and degrees of environmentalists out here as there are states in the
union.

-c

gatt wrote:
Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:

It is only financially rewarding because it was made politically
correct to be an environmentalist.

Depends on where you live and the specific issues. There are more types
and degrees of environmentalists out here as there are states in the union.

-c

I have to disagree with you here. Pretty much everywhere in the US,
including the oil producing and processing states it is politically
correct to be an environmentalist right now.

Larry Dighera wrote:

On average around the world, sunlight delivers a barrel of oil of
energy on every square meter of land every year. At $100 a barrel,
a 100m2 roof is receiving $10,000/yr of energy - a quarter of a
million dollars over 25 years. With photovoltaic systems we can
convert up to 20% of this raw energy directly into electricity.

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.

This is just apples and oranges arm waving.

The other minor problem no one cares to address is that contrary to
what most people think, peak electricity demand is typically after
sundown.


--
Jim Pennino

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wrote in message
...
Larry Dighera wrote:

On average around the world, sunlight delivers a barrel of oil of
energy on every square meter of land every year. At $100 a barrel,
a 100m2 roof is receiving $10,000/yr of energy - a quarter of a
million dollars over 25 years. With photovoltaic systems we can
convert up to 20% of this raw energy directly into electricity.

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


But it could.

Homes can be heated with electricity.

Vehicles can be propelled with electricity (including GA aircraft - check
Boeing's recent announcement)

I don't know what size battery is required to hold enough energy to heat a
home all winter, but I know they're getting smaller. The Helios used a
hydrogen fuel cell to store electricity for night flight. The photo cells
powered electrolysis to separate Hydrogen from Water during the day. At
night, they passed the Hydrogen through a fuel cell membrane to generate
electricity.

Steve Foley wrote:
wrote in message
...

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


But it could.

And if frogs had built in parachutes they could land softly instead of
banging their butts so hard when they land, but they don't.



--
Jim Pennino

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On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:15:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

On average around the world, sunlight delivers a barrel of oil of
energy on every square meter of land every year. At $100 a barrel,
a 100m2 roof is receiving $10,000/yr of energy - a quarter of a
million dollars over 25 years. With photovoltaic systems we can
convert up to 20% of this raw energy directly into electricity.

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


Perhaps not directly, but if the GM Volt* (and hybrid autos) is(are)
successful, the replacement of the current crop of gas guzzling SUVs
with alternatively powered automobiles could eventually impact oil
consumption in the US due, not only to their not using (as much)
petroleum, but also due to their increased efficiency (MPG). Add to
that the use of solar energy to fuel them, thus replacing/reducing the
current requirement for petroleum.


This is just apples and oranges arm waving.

You've got to look beyond the obvious to appreciate how solar power
can impact oil consumption. If hybrid automobiles provide higher MPG
ratings, and solar power spins electric meters backwards, I would
anticipate petroleum consumption to be reduced. Don't you agree?


The other minor problem no one cares to address is that contrary to
what most people think, peak electricity demand is typically after
sundown.


We are both California residents. As I recall, the rolling
blackouts** of the beginning of this century occurred during the day
primarily due to air conditioning loads. Are you able to cite any
statistics that support your assertion that "peak electricity demand
is typically after sundown?" I can see where illumination loads might
increase, but other loads should be significantly reduced at night,
IMO.





* http://gm-volt.com/
Q: How many miles per gallon will the Chevy Volt get?
A: A bit of a trick question. For the first 40 miles it will get
infinite mpg, because no gas will be burned. When the generator
starts, the car will get an equivalent of 50 mpg thereafter. One
can calculate the average mpg per for any length drive starting
with a full battery: Total MPG = 50xM/(M-40)

Q: What is the cost of operation of the car
A: With current average U.S. electric rates of ~10 cents/kwh it
should cost 80 cents to drive for the first 40 miles, and then 50
mpg thereafter using gasoline (market rate).



** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling...out#California

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:15:02 GMT, wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

On average around the world, sunlight delivers a barrel of oil of
energy on every square meter of land every year. At $100 a barrel,
a 100m2 roof is receiving $10,000/yr of energy - a quarter of a
million dollars over 25 years. With photovoltaic systems we can
convert up to 20% of this raw energy directly into electricity.

Electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


Perhaps not directly, but if the GM Volt* (and hybrid autos) is(are)
successful, the replacement of the current crop of gas guzzling SUVs
with alternatively powered automobiles could eventually impact oil
consumption in the US due, not only to their not using (as much)
petroleum, but also due to their increased efficiency (MPG). Add to
that the use of solar energy to fuel them, thus replacing/reducing the
current requirement for petroleum.

If and eventually are a long way away.

Roughly 40% of US vehicles are over 10 years old; factor that into
the projection of how long it will take before electric cars make
a difference in anything once they actually exist.

This is just apples and oranges arm waving.

You've got to look beyond the obvious to appreciate how solar power
can impact oil consumption. If hybrid automobiles provide higher MPG
ratings, and solar power spins electric meters backwards, I would
anticipate petroleum consumption to be reduced. Don't you agree?

Once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.

Spinning electric meters backwards won't reduce oil consumption.

The other minor problem no one cares to address is that contrary to
what most people think, peak electricity demand is typically after
sundown.


We are both California residents. As I recall, the rolling
blackouts** of the beginning of this century occurred during the day
primarily due to air conditioning loads. Are you able to cite any
statistics that support your assertion that "peak electricity demand
is typically after sundown?" I can see where illumination loads might
increase, but other loads should be significantly reduced at night,
IMO.

Like I said, the reality is contrary to what most people think.

For about 9 months out of the year, peak electric demand occurs at
about 9PM and DST doesn't change that fact.

For about 3 months out of the year, i.e. the hot part, you get two
peaks, one at mid afternoon and another at about 9 PM.

Here's the current demand for California:

http://www.caiso.com/outlook/SystemStatus.html

Here's some historical data:

http://mail.specsol.com/~jimp/caiso.php

When the weather starts hitting around 80, the daytime hump picks
up.

When the weather starts hitting the 90's, the hump gets huge and
the blackouts occur.

This is consistant for all power producers in the first world and not
unique to either California or the United States.

So, how many solar plants can one put up before you have idle plants
for 8 to 9 months out of the year and where do you get power at night?

And once again, electricity has little to nothing to do with oil.


--
Jim Pennino

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