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Tina wrote in
: On Jun 11, 1:13 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Big John wrote : Bertie I flew four flightin the 737 over Memorial week. Each landing started from a down wind and long stablized final VFR. I did not detect any attitude change or thorttle change after turning final. I also DID NOT feel or see any flare and impact with ground was what I would say was hard. Is this normal in the 737, to set up an attitude and fly into the ground without flaring? Nothing broke on any of the landings and we walked awasy from each so must have been good ladings like they say??? Well, the airpane doesn't pitch so much largely because the slats and flaps come out together, unlike airplanes with flaps only. If you fly smoothly power changes should be minimal. We don't really flare in the same way you would in most. just a quick tug at abou t15 feet to reduce the rate of descent, but we're not supposed to grease it on for a few reasons. One, float and wasted runway. two, it gets all the spoilers and othe squat switch things going as well as the immediate availability of brakes. three, it breaks the surface tension of any water if it's a wet runway and four it gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie I can understand everything you said about firm landings, except the tire scuffing comment. It would seem to me landing firm would smoke the tires since they have to accelerate to the correct speed right now, where a gentle touch down would let them accelerate more slowly. A more gentle acceleration means less shear forces on the tire, so I'm missing something important. Are there any insights you can offer? Yeah. They're pretty heavy and take a bit to get spinning, so if you grease it on, you just scuff rubber off of one spot until they start rotating. It's even worse on a wet runway, where water can slice through rubber very quickly. Sounds crazy, i know. If you're at an airport where you can see the tires, it's not uncommon to see parts of tires with oval wear patches where they've worn through to the first layer of cord. That's allowed, btw. Bertie Bertie |
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![]() "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message ... Tina wrote in : On Jun 11, 1:13 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Well, the airpane doesn't pitch so much largely because the slats and flaps come out together, unlike airplanes with flaps only. If you fly smoothly power changes should be minimal. We don't really flare in the same way you would in most. just a quick tug at abou t15 feet to reduce the rate of descent, but we're not supposed to grease it on for a few reasons. One, float and wasted runway. two, it gets all the spoilers and othe squat switch things going as well as the immediate availability of brakes. three, it breaks the surface tension of any water if it's a wet runway and four it gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie I can understand everything you said about firm landings, except the tire scuffing comment. It would seem to me landing firm would smoke the tires since they have to accelerate to the correct speed right now, where a gentle touch down would let them accelerate more slowly. A more gentle acceleration means less shear forces on the tire, so I'm missing something important. Are there any insights you can offer? Yeah. They're pretty heavy and take a bit to get spinning, so if you grease it on, you just scuff rubber off of one spot until they start rotating. It's even worse on a wet runway, where water can slice through rubber very quickly. Sounds crazy, i know. If you're at an airport where you can see the tires, it's not uncommon to see parts of tires with oval wear patches where they've worn through to the first layer of cord. That's allowed, btw. Bertie This may be mostly a function of speed. I never heard of it at the entry level, such as 150s and 172s, but the issue has been discussed from time to time in the aviation magazines--especially is there is any drag on the brakes. Peter |
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"Peter Dohm" wrote in
: "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message ... Tina wrote in news:3de72bf8-4626-4420-8b38-9b7248d4a236 @p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com : On Jun 11, 1:13 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Well, the airpane doesn't pitch so much largely because the slats and flaps come out together, unlike airplanes with flaps only. If you fly smoothly power changes should be minimal. We don't really flare in the same way you would in most. just a quick tug at abou t15 feet to reduce the rate of descent, but we're not supposed to grease it on for a few reasons. One, float and wasted runway. two, it gets all the spoilers and othe squat switch things going as well as the immediate availability of brakes. three, it breaks the surface tension of any water if it's a wet runway and four it gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie I can understand everything you said about firm landings, except the tire scuffing comment. It would seem to me landing firm would smoke the tires since they have to accelerate to the correct speed right now, where a gentle touch down would let them accelerate more slowly. A more gentle acceleration means less shear forces on the tire, so I'm missing something important. Are there any insights you can offer? Yeah. They're pretty heavy and take a bit to get spinning, so if you grease it on, you just scuff rubber off of one spot until they start rotating. It's even worse on a wet runway, where water can slice through rubber very quickly. Sounds crazy, i know. If you're at an airport where you can see the tires, it's not uncommon to see parts of tires with oval wear patches where they've worn through to the first layer of cord. That's allowed, btw. Bertie This may be mostly a function of speed. I never heard of it at the entry level, such as 150s and 172s, but the issue has been discussed from time to time in the aviation magazines--especially is there is any drag on the brakes. Yeah, speed and the mass of the things. At a guess, I'd say 737 wheels weigh in the region of 200 lbs and larger aircraft even more of course. Takes a moment ot get them going. Nothing to do with brakes, of course Bertie |
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Just landed yesterday in a British Air 73. Unlike American jets, didn't feel
any thrust reverse, just some pretty hefty braking action. At least they gave us a sandwich, unlike the American carriers. I wonder if Anthony will be surprised when I stop by his place on Rue de General in Paris? I have a lot of camera gear, so will be sure to post photos. Will do some sail plane flying in Provence later this week- it's a lot different experience, much adverse yaw and lots of rudder required, and what's with this flying without headsets? JN "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message ... Big John wrote in : Bertie I flew four flightin the 737 over Memorial week. Each landing started from a down wind and long stablized final VFR. I did not detect any attitude change or thorttle change after turning final. I also DID NOT feel or see any flare and impact with ground was what I would say was hard. Is this normal in the 737, to set up an attitude and fly into the ground without flaring? Nothing broke on any of the landings and we walked awasy from each so must have been good ladings like they say??? Well, the airpane doesn't pitch so much largely because the slats and flaps come out together, unlike airplanes with flaps only. If you fly smoothly power changes should be minimal. We don't really flare in the same way you would in most. just a quick tug at abou t15 feet to reduce the rate of descent, but we're not supposed to grease it on for a few reasons. One, float and wasted runway. two, it gets all the spoilers and othe squat switch things going as well as the immediate availability of brakes. three, it breaks the surface tension of any water if it's a wet runway and four it gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie |
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On Jun 11, 8:19 am, "Viperdoc" wrote:
Just landed yesterday in a British Air 73. Unlike American jets, didn't feel any thrust reverse, just some pretty hefty braking action. At least they gave us a sandwich, unlike the American carriers. I wonder if Anthony will be surprised when I stop by his place on Rue de General in Paris? I have a lot of camera gear, so will be sure to post photos. Will do some sail plane flying in Provence later this week- it's a lot different experience, much adverse yaw and lots of rudder required, and what's with this flying without headsets? JN "Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in 8.18... Big John wrote in : Bertie I flew four flightin the 737 over Memorial week. Each landing started from a down wind and long stablized final VFR. I did not detect any attitude change or thorttle change after turning final. I also DID NOT feel or see any flare and impact with ground was what I would say was hard. Is this normal in the 737, to set up an attitude and fly into the ground without flaring? Nothing broke on any of the landings and we walked awasy from each so must have been good ladings like they say??? Well, the airpane doesn't pitch so much largely because the slats and flaps come out together, unlike airplanes with flaps only. If you fly smoothly power changes should be minimal. We don't really flare in the same way you would in most. just a quick tug at abou t15 feet to reduce the rate of descent, but we're not supposed to grease it on for a few reasons. One, float and wasted runway. two, it gets all the spoilers and othe squat switch things going as well as the immediate availability of brakes. three, it breaks the surface tension of any water if it's a wet runway and four it gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie I think you're in a lot of trouble when a primary gauge is a piece of yarn taped to the windscreen! |
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On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 05:38:20 -0700 (PDT), Tina
wrote: gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie I think you're in a lot of trouble when a primary gauge is a piece of yarn taped to the windscreen! standard is a twinings or tetleys tea bag string. |
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On Jun 11, 11:30 am, Stealth Pilot
wrote: On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 05:38:20 -0700 (PDT), Tina wrote: gets the wheels spinning straight away. you can scuff tires badly in a greaser.. Bertie I think you're in a lot of trouble when a primary gauge is a piece of yarn taped to the windscreen! standard is a twinings or tetleys tea bag string. Viperdoc said he's flying in France! Are you telling me the French would use an English tea bag? You have just destroyed my whole image of French nationalism. In Elmira NY where I took two glider flights the instructor had a real sense of humor. He taped a piece of pink yarn on the window. (No, he was not being sexist, just funny). I have that piece of yarn taped into a scrap book now. For what it's worth the instructor claimed I bruised his knees I was yanking the stick around so much. Can you say 'over controlling'? The yarn actually did point straight back for a couple of minutes during that flight, most often when it was on the way from one side to the other. |
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On Jun 12, 12:38 am, Tina wrote:
I think you're in a lot of trouble when a primary gauge is a piece of yarn taped to the windscreen! You can't knock an indicator with a 100% accuracy though |
#9
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![]() "Tina" wrote in message ... I think you're in a lot of trouble when a primary gauge is a piece of yarn taped to the windscreen! I have seen yaw strings on military heavy iron, both fixed and rotary wing. The main reason we don't use yaw strings on SEL is that pesky front-mounted propeller kinda messes with the airflow around the windscreen. (Step on the ball, step away from the string) Vaughn |
#10
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Viperdoc wrote:
Just landed yesterday in a British Air 73. Unlike American jets, didn't feel any thrust reverse, just some pretty hefty braking action. At least they gave us a sandwich, unlike the American carriers. I wonder if Anthony will be surprised when I stop by his place on Rue de General in Paris? I have a lot of camera gear, so will be sure to post photos. Will do some sail plane flying in Provence later this week- it's a lot different experience, much adverse yaw and lots of rudder required, and what's with this flying without headsets? JN Take one of his tours and don't tell him who you are till the end. And if I don't see photos I will be very upset. |
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