Mayday in Utah

At 14:56 12 June 2008, 5Z wrote:

OK, I'm sure some of you are jesting, but here's what *might* have
happened:

Pilot is soaring over remote Utah with some reasonably safe looking
dry lakes, pastures, whatever below. Runs out of lift and decides
it's time to start the engine while within easy range of one of these
landing options. The engine fails to start, the location is extremely
remote, so pilot makes a MAYDAY call while still in the landing
pattern to ensure someone will come get him if problems arise.

If he had a transponder or SPOT, he might activate these before
landing, again in case something bad happens.

When I fly my ASH-26E, I'm always planning to land it somewhere
safely, but it's a welcome relief when the engine starts. It's just
plain stupid to not be preparing to land as one is starting the engine
- just in case.

So if you were flying a pure glider, and facing the prospect
of landing in a remote, but reasonably safe looking dry
lake, pasture, whatever, would you send out a Mayday
message before even landing?

Jim Beckman

On Jun 12, 7:56*am, 5Z wrote:

OK, I'm sure some of you are jesting, but here's what *might* have
happened...

I think we can be fairly sure he wasn't tightening the iris on his
camera after a console lockup.

On 12 Jun, 15:56, 5Z wrote:

Pilot is soaring over remote Utah with some reasonably safe looking
dry lakes, pastures, whatever below. Runs out of lift and decides
it's time to start the engine while within easy range of one of these
landing options. The engine fails to start, the location is extremely
remote, so pilot makes a MAYDAY call while still in the landing
pattern to ensure someone will come get him if problems arise.

That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.

Ian

On 19 Jun., 10:33, Ian wrote:
On 12 Jun, 15:56, 5Z wrote:

Pilot is soaring over remote Utah with some reasonably safe looking
dry lakes, pastures, whatever below. *Runs out of lift and decides
it's time to start the engine while within easy range of one of these
landing options. *The engine fails to start, the location is extremely
remote, so pilot makes a MAYDAY call while still in the landing
pattern to ensure someone will come get him if problems arise.

That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.

Ian

On the discussion Pan-Pan vs. Mayday:
As I learned it (and is content of German PPL exams), Mayday means
declaring an emergency for your OWN plane, whereas Pan-Pan means you
noticed an emergency on someone else.

An engine failure on your plane would in this sense be a Mayday, an
observed car crash or a broken glider on the ground would be a Pan-
Pan.

Somehow I get confused because Wikipedia states it different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(distress_signal)
They refer to the lower/higher order of the emergency situation.
Can anyone clarify that?

At 10:20 19 June 2008, Jonas Eberle wrote:
On 19 Jun., 10:33, Ian wrote:
On 12 Jun, 15:56, 5Z wrote:

Pilot is soaring over remote Utah with some reasonably safe looking
dry lakes, pastures, whatever below. =A0Runs out of lift and decides
it's time to start the engine while within easy range of one of
these
landing options. =A0The engine fails to start, the location is
extremel=
y
remote, so pilot makes a MAYDAY call while still in the landing
pattern to ensure someone will come get him if problems arise.

That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.

Ian

On the discussion Pan-Pan vs. Mayday:
As I learned it (and is content of German PPL exams), Mayday means
declaring an emergency for your OWN plane, whereas Pan-Pan means you
noticed an emergency on someone else.

An engine failure on your plane would in this sense be a Mayday, an
observed car crash or a broken glider on the ground would be a Pan-
Pan.

Somehow I get confused because Wikipedia states it different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(distress_signal)
They refer to the lower/higher order of the emergency situation.
Can anyone clarify that?

MAYDAY means emergency while PAN PAN means Possible Assistance Needed.

John.

On 19 Jun, 11:20, Jonas Eberle wrote:

Somehow I get confused because Wikipedia states it different:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan...istress_signal)
They refer to the lower/higher order of the emergency situation.
Can anyone clarify that?

Mayday originally meant "grave and imminent danger to vessel (or
aircraft)". It doesn't have to be your own: if you see a ship sinking
or a glider lose a wing then you are perfectly justified in calling
Mayday.

It did not - the last time I checked, and when I was examined in such
things by a Marconi man - mean "grave and imminent danger to a
person". Various authorities - starting, I think, with the Royal
Yachting Association in the UK - have tried to extend the meaning de
facto, but as far as I am aware it's not official. Theoretically,
therefore, you could be in trouble for calling Mayday for a man
overboard. However, I doubt if anyone would prosecute in practixe, and
if my crew fell overboard I'd call any damn thing I thought would help
and deal with the consequences later.

To return to the distinction, Pan Pan means "this is nasty, but
nothing is on the point of sinking or crashing and "Securite securite
means "look out, folks".

Calling Mayday causes all sorts of things to happen. Everybody else
will stop transmitting (even pan pans). Every available receiver will
be tuned in to you. Recorders will start running. People will be
called in from rest periods. Air crews will warm up helicopters. Huge
amounts of money will be spent.

It is absolutely, grossly, terribly irresponsible to use it for
anything other than dreadful emergency. "I might screw up this landing
so I'd better ask for help just in case" is NOT a dreadful emergency.

Ian

Jonas Eberle wrote:
On 19 Jun., 10:33, Ian wrote:

On 12 Jun, 15:56, 5Z wrote:


Pilot is soaring over remote Utah with some reasonably safe looking
dry lakes, pastures, whatever below. Runs out of lift and decides
it's time to start the engine while within easy range of one of these
landing options. The engine fails to start, the location is extremely
remote, so pilot makes a MAYDAY call while still in the landing
pattern to ensure someone will come get him if problems arise.

That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.

Ian


On the discussion Pan-Pan vs. Mayday:
As I learned it (and is content of German PPL exams), Mayday means
declaring an emergency for your OWN plane, whereas Pan-Pan means you
noticed an emergency on someone else.

An engine failure on your plane would in this sense be a Mayday, an
observed car crash or a broken glider on the ground would be a Pan-
Pan.

Somehow I get confused because Wikipedia states it different:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(distress_signal)
They refer to the lower/higher order of the emergency situation.
Can anyone clarify that?

Here is text regarding marine VHF use of mayday and pan pan. I recall
learning the same for aircraft use as well (USA)...

7. Emergency signals:

* "MAYDAY": this distress signal is to be used only when threat of
grave and iminent danger exists; requests immediate assistance. “MAYDAY”
has priority over all other messages.
* "PAN PAN": this urgency signal is to be used when the safety of
vessel or person(s) is in jeopardy.

(From website:
http://www.co.escambia.fl.us/departm...Procedures.php )

Scott

On Jun 19, 2:33*am, Ian wrote:
That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.

You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

-Tom

5Z wrote:
You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

PAN PAN in Europe, which would have the desired effect. I've heard this
is not fully recognised in the US - true or not?

Hi Tom

This is RAS - so the advice is only guaranteed to be worth every cent you pay, but here is my opinion for what it is worth.

I believe the adage is Aviate, navigate, communicate (My corollary is - and know the consequences.)

Having aviated into a hazardous situation - however we got there, the thing to do is to fly the aeroplane, to as safe a
location as possible under the circumstances (minimise the risk of damage and injury), and communicate the situation
(location and risk of damage or injury) as clearly as possible.
Part of mitigating risk to yourself and others is to ensure the people at your home airfield and or SAR know where you
are, and what your intentions are. The cost and risks associated with a large scale search when there is limited
information available is much higher.

So -


You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

My call is -
PAN PAN "... I have the following situation."

But my understanding is that the controllers / SAR / contest directors would like to know the situation whatever you
call it- as long as you explain the situation. If you mistakenly use "Mayday", the person you are talking to "should"
ask if you really want to declare an emergency.
Then remember to tell the same people once you are down what the new (hopefully - "no problem") situation is.

Even in remote areas you may be able to relay via an airliner - who should be listening for your call if you made a PAN
announcement.

If they don't hear from you cancelling the PAN (Possible Assistance Needed )call all the expensive stuff will start on
the assumption that it is no longer a possible, but an actual "assistance needed" situation - but you won't be on the
hook for futile expenses.

I you cry wolf - You will, of course, aggravate a lot of people you might really want on your side in a real emergency.
And they will bill you.

Communicating anything can save a lot of aggravation - Consider the contest pilot who got too busy to call landing out
in the middle of nowhere on a contest day that developed massive storm fronts. Last contact on the radio was around two
hours before eventual landing. That is a lot of ground for a modern 18m ship.
On the ground , he had no cell reception, deserted farmhouses and too little radio range (flat battery) to reach anyone.
Having lost track of exactly where he was in the excitement he was unaware/unsure of how to reach the nearest town which
was 13km away. Out of options and ideas he slept uncomfortably in the cockpit while the storm blew itself out - which is
more than can be said for a lot of others who spent much of the night up and arranging a search at dawn. Then seven
aircraft started a grid search, with most burning two hours of tach time by the time the aircraft was located, and they
got back home. Then the issue of cost comes up...

The take away from that one for me was - have decent battery endurance available, and try to have two cellular phones so
that you may be able to get alternative comms working. The field we found him in had reasonable cellular coverage by the
alternative network, not his service provider. Could/should have been a simple retrieve.

Sometimes abuse is preferable to non-use.

5Z wrote:
On Jun 19, 2:33 am, Ian wrote:
That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.

You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

-Tom