Best dogfight gun?

On 5 Dec 2003 07:42:43 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

Chad Irby wrote in message om...
In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

The M61 is a poor substitute for this bad baby:

http://www.airforce-technology.com/c.../mauser21.html

...if you don't mind only firing 1,700 rounds per minute as opposed to
about 6,000...

...when the M61 doesn't jam, that is.

Carried an M61 in the F-105 and the F-4E for 250 combat missions.
Carried the SUU-16 and SUU-23 on F-4Cs for four years. Carried the
SUU-11 mini-gun on AT-38s and fired literally hundreds of thousands of
rounds over 23 years of tactical experience. Never experienced a
single M61 variant jamming. Never saw on jam in any flight that I was
on. Never heard anyone talk about one jamming in any squadron I was
in. Doesn't sound, based on a limited empirical sampling like a
problem.

I prefer Mauser's BK-27
jam-proof linkless and up-coming dual feed version.

Should we note that the drum-fed internally carried M-61 is linkless?

BTW, in close combat 6000 rpm bursts don't mean that much.

You're correct. "Close combat" is stupid. It means you screwed up at
several earlier decision points. But, if you reach that point, why
don't 6K RPM bursts mean much? Would a 1K RPM burst be more
meaningful? Or were you suggesting that more RPM would be desireable.

If the burst will be on the target for .2 seconds, would it be better
to have more rounds or fewer during that interval?

A
1,700-1,800 rpm burst of 27mm fire from the single-barrel BK-27 will
ruin your day, especially with frangible ammo.

How about HEI instead of "frangible"? I'm not worried about
frangibility, as I would be if discharging a .45 ACP at a burglar in a
mid-town apartment. I'm worried about damaging the airframe and that
means HEI or maybe HEI/API mix.

Now if only the Germans could fit the amazing 30mm RMK inside the
Typhoon... but I'm sure it will find its way onto the Tiger helo.

Going from .50 cal to 20mm to 25mm to 30mm, etc, always incurs a
weight penalty. There are trade-offs between weight, ballistics,
accuracy, burst density, etc. Consider that one round of 155mm would
surely result in a kill, do we than suggest mounting artillery in the
nose of fighters? Clearly hyperbole for argument's sake.

Consider further that a gun will be carried on every sorties for the
life of the aircraft and for most aircraft will never be fired at
another aircraft in anger.

"Hoser" said, "There's no kill like a gun kill...." but, that may be
because gun kills are so damn rare.



Rob

In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 5 Dec 2003 07:42:43 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

...when the M61 doesn't jam, that is.

Never experienced a single M61 variant jamming. Never saw on jam in
any flight that I was on. Never heard anyone talk about one jamming
in any squadron I was in. Doesn't sound, based on a limited empirical
sampling like a problem.

Well, Ed, you have to remember you're talking to Arndt. As fas as he's
concerned, everything important ever invented for aviation was invented
in Germany, all German-made machinery is the best in the world at
everything, and all American equipment is simply terrible and unreliable.

Which is why he's touting a weapon with less than one-third the firing
rate, and claiming that it's immune to mechanical problems...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:58:36 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 5 Dec 2003 07:42:43 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

...when the M61 doesn't jam, that is.

Never experienced a single M61 variant jamming. Never saw on jam in
any flight that I was on. Never heard anyone talk about one jamming
in any squadron I was in. Doesn't sound, based on a limited empirical
sampling like a problem.

Well, Ed, you have to remember you're talking to Arndt. As fas as he's
concerned, everything important ever invented for aviation was invented
in Germany, all German-made machinery is the best in the world at
everything, and all American equipment is simply terrible and unreliable.

Which is why he's touting a weapon with less than one-third the firing
rate, and claiming that it's immune to mechanical problems...
dont forget that the gatling is designed for longterm use unlike a
single barrel cannon. each barrel is only shooting 1/6, 1/7 etc of the
time. what is the lifecyle of the single barrel cannons compared to
the m61/Gau-8/Gau-25

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:31:25 -0800, Lyle wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 18:58:36 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 5 Dec 2003 07:42:43 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

...when the M61 doesn't jam, that is.

Never experienced a single M61 variant jamming. Never saw on jam in
any flight that I was on. Never heard anyone talk about one jamming
in any squadron I was in. Doesn't sound, based on a limited empirical
sampling like a problem.

Well, Ed, you have to remember you're talking to Arndt. As fas as he's
concerned, everything important ever invented for aviation was invented
in Germany, all German-made machinery is the best in the world at
everything, and all American equipment is simply terrible and unreliable.

Which is why he's touting a weapon with less than one-third the firing
rate, and claiming that it's immune to mechanical problems...
dont forget that the gatling is designed for longterm use unlike a
single barrel cannon. each barrel is only shooting 1/6, 1/7 etc of the
time. what is the lifecyle of the single barrel cannons compared to
the m61/Gau-8/Gau-25

The weight penalty of the multi barrels is a major drawback, its not
like the cannon is the primary weapon anymore....
The BK-27 has a good reputation, same as the M61!, the question
remains which is the most accurate and is a better dispersal an
advantage or not???.
Which has the Higher PK?.

Cheers


John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
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Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

In article ,
John Cook wrote:

The weight penalty of the multi barrels is a major drawback, its not
like the cannon is the primary weapon anymore....

The BK27 weighs about 100 kilograms, the lightweight version of the M61
(used in the Raptor) weighs about 100 kilograms. Kinda hard to call
that much of a penalty.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.