Filing IFR flight Plan in VMC

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Jul 28, 4:17 pm, B A R R Y wrote:



Real requests for approach usually include the "Are you rated and
equipped?" query if you're not arriving on an IFR plan.

I've never, ever been asked that in the US. Its customary in Mexico to
ask that when picking up an IFR clearance (not sure what they would do
if I said no )

-Robert



Controllers are only required to ask if you're rated and equipped if a
pilot flying VFR states he's in weather difficulty and would like an IFR
clearance.

Robert M. Gary wrote:

My local guys usually say "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach,
remain VFR".

Which is odd because you are always VFR unless he issues you a
claranace.

Well, "Cleared for the ILS XX practice approach" could be construed as a
clearance - it does start with the words "cleared for". So "remain VFR"
makes it clear that this is not, in fact, an IFR clearance, despite the
wording.

Mark Hansen wrote:

You do not have to be under an IFR clearance to practice approaches. In
fact, some controllers will say "Practice Approach Approved" rather than
the normal "Cleared for the approach" to make this point clear.

That has nothing to do with it.

On Jul 28, 12:15*pm, "Howard" wrote:

Which raises the question "is the safety pilot PIC" if the pilot operating
the controls with a vision restricting device is has not met the 6/6
requirement? You are VFR but operating under an IFR clearance for the
purposes of the practice approaches. Who has legally accepted the
approaches?-


Most of the time practice instrument approaches are practiced under
VFR. If you want to practice them under IFR you must ask specifically
for an instrument clearance. You will know you have an instrument
clearance because the controller will say "Cleared to foobar airport,
via...". Probably 90% of all practice instrument approach practice is
done under VFR.


Note that "IFR" refers to flight rules and has nothing to do with
weather. The term "IMC" is used to refer to wx conditions less than
VFR.

-Robert, CFII

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:56:16 GMT, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com"
u45015@uwe wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR"
and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in
91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or
61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while
flying under IFR.

61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in
weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless
within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the
stuff required for instrument currency)

On 07/28/08 12:23, Peter Clark wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:56:16 GMT, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com"
u45015@uwe wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR"
and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in
91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or
61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while
flying under IFR.

61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in
weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless
within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the
stuff required for instrument currency)

You missed the big one: 61.3(e). Have a look at my other response.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:48:03 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 07/28/08 12:23, Peter Clark wrote:
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:56:16 GMT, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com"
u45015@uwe wrote:

I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Unless I'm mistaken, you can't do it. Since you'd be PIC "under IFR"
and don't have the rating you can't meet the requirements in
91.169(a)(1) (referencing 91.153(a)(3) ("name of pilot in command" or
61.57(2)(c). It doesn't make a distinction between IMC or VMC while
flying under IFR.

61.57(2)(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e)
of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in
weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless
within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has: (all the
stuff required for instrument currency)

You missed the big one: 61.3(e). Have a look at my other response.

Yea, dua, I was looking at it from the flight plan PIC requirement
back and stopped at recency.... Thanks.

On 07/28/08 11:56, Cyberfly via AviationKB.com wrote:
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
so at $165/hr with instructor,, the $$$$ flow is very high right now) . I
was told by one of the "old guys" at the airport that if I wanted to file an
IFR flight plan in VMC and remain totally VFR, that I could do so by myself
without an instructor with me (and without my IFR ticket). The premise is
that it is not illegal to file an IFR plan and fly it VMC while keeping VFR
the entire time. It is very "ILLEGAL" to file IFR flight plan and fly in IMC
without either your IFR ticket or an IFR rated instructor. The practice would
be great of getting into the system, approaches, vectors, etc.,,but my fear
is that if I try this,,I could wind up in deep dodo with my local FSDO. I
have searched the FARs and cant find any reference to this scenario and so I
cant verify if I could actually do this or not legally.
This would be quite easy to do at night on a clear night. I do most of my IFR
training at night because of my work schedule and love the night flights,
less traffic, no turbulence, etc... Your thoughts?

Thanks ron..


Ron,

Have a look at FAR 61.3 (e):

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft
category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an
airplane instrument rating; or

(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air
category rating and airship class rating.



Note that it says "under IFR *or* in IMC". There are also regs concerning
your currency of flight experience. I'll let you look those up as a homework
assignment :-)

One thing you *can* do, however, is practice instrument approaches. I suspect
this is what the "old guys" were talking about.

Although not required, you should consider only doing this when you have a
safety pilot, as it is not easy to twiddle with all the dials while still
keeping your eyes outside the cockpit looking for other traffic.

How are things going with your rating otherwise?

Best Regards,

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

MArk, thanks for the input ,, I did look at 61.3 but interpreted it
differently as IFR meaning IMC. So I guess the old guy was full of old crap...
lol... THanks for the info on this one. Im almost done with my required
items, hours, approaches, can even do ndb holds, radial holding, etc. The
plane I rent has ADF and VOR (KX155) and DME and also has a Garmin 430 so Im
learning both the old and new methods. I took my written and got a 96 on it..
so am glad to get that out of the way.. I should be ready for a check ride in
Sept.. thanks for the help.. ron..

Mark Hansen wrote:
I have a question for the group. Im working on my IFR ticket, and will be
finished in about another 2-3 months, depending on how much I fly (Im renting.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]

Thanks ron..

Ron,

Have a look at FAR 61.3 (e):

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft
category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an
airplane instrument rating; or

(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air
category rating and airship class rating.

Note that it says "under IFR *or* in IMC". There are also regs concerning
your currency of flight experience. I'll let you look those up as a homework
assignment :-)

One thing you *can* do, however, is practice instrument approaches. I suspect
this is what the "old guys" were talking about.

Although not required, you should consider only doing this when you have a
safety pilot, as it is not easy to twiddle with all the dials while still
keeping your eyes outside the cockpit looking for other traffic.

How are things going with your rating otherwise?

Best Regards,


--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/ifr/200807/1

On Jul 28, 7:01*pm, "Cyberfly via AviationKB.com" u45015@uwe wrote:
MArk, thanks for the input ,, I did look at 61.3 but interpreted it
differently as IFR meaning IMC. So I guess the old guy was full of old crap...
lol... THanks for the info on this one. Im almost done with my required
items, hours, approaches, can even do ndb holds, radial holding, etc. The
plane I rent has ADF and VOR (KX155) and DME and also has a Garmin 430 so Im
learning both the old and new methods. I took my written and got a 96 on it..
so am glad to get that out of the way.. I should be ready for a check ride in
Sept.. thanks for the help.. ron..


Yes, IFR is different than IMC. IFR is "rules", IMC is "conditions".

-Robert