Just push the blue button!

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:54:44 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:45:00 GMT, Mike wrote:

I've flown with plenty of 300 hour pilots who don't multitask well and
some
of them had their instrument and commercial. I didn't multitask well
at
300
hours. That's something you pick up with experience.

I've flown with many that have picked up MT skills well under 300. It's
not a black-white consideration.

Some do, but it's certainly not out of line that he didn't. As far as
his
decision making goes, the actual conditions turned out worse than anyone
had
forecast. Flying at night can always turn into a hazardous situation,
but
Kennedy had flown a considerable amount of time with an instructor at
night,
and he was working on his instrument ticket. So he was genuinely
interested
in improving his flying skills and there's nothing to indicate he made
any
bad decisions.

If you mean before he spun, I would heavily disagree.

My guess is he probably attempted too steep of a turn and
had no idea he was in any danger of spacial disorientation because he
didn't
recognize that he was in instrument conditions. Unfortunately it's a
common
mistake for low time pilots and lots of them kill themselves that way.

This is your neck of the woods, if he had called you up, would you have
said "Go"?

I never tell anyone if they should go or not. That's their own decision to
make.

20% of fatal GA accidents are at night even though night flights make up
only 5% of the GA traffic. Of those fatal accidents, the most common is
exactly the situation that Kennedy found himself. So it wasn't as if
Kennedy was in an easy situation and did something monumentally stupid.

The chain of mistakes he made was at least a small monument to
stupidity, imo.

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:24:22 GMT, Mike wrote:

His aircraft was having intermittent problems with its autopilot. He may
have been preoccupied with it.

Personally I like to stay as high as I can, as long as I can. This would
be
especially true over water. Making a 1000 fpm descent is preferable to
descending too soon and needing that extra altitude at some point.

I don't remember reading about the a/p problems. But your notion of
too steep a turn planned by the pilot seems to be refuted by the
airplane heading and airport location. There is little doubt he did
enter too steep a turn but the narrative suggests several turns in
different directions as well as variations in altitude that would not
have been justified by rational pilot decisions. He was without a
visible horizon and without the skills to fly without one.

So is everyone who flies VFR over the top or on a moonless night. Are all
those pilots irrational as well? Perhaps, but if that's the case Kennedy
was no more or less irrational than thousands of other pilots who put
themselves into similar situations. That's my point.

"Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight." Your comment from a previous post, Mike.

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:54:44 GMT, Mike wrote:

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:45:00 GMT, Mike wrote:

I've flown with plenty of 300 hour pilots who don't multitask well
and
some
of them had their instrument and commercial. I didn't multitask well
at
300
hours. That's something you pick up with experience.

I've flown with many that have picked up MT skills well under 300.
It's
not a black-white consideration.

Some do, but it's certainly not out of line that he didn't. As far as
his
decision making goes, the actual conditions turned out worse than
anyone
had
forecast. Flying at night can always turn into a hazardous situation,
but
Kennedy had flown a considerable amount of time with an instructor at
night,
and he was working on his instrument ticket. So he was genuinely
interested
in improving his flying skills and there's nothing to indicate he made
any
bad decisions.

If you mean before he spun, I would heavily disagree.

My guess is he probably attempted too steep of a turn and
had no idea he was in any danger of spacial disorientation because he
didn't
recognize that he was in instrument conditions. Unfortunately it's a
common
mistake for low time pilots and lots of them kill themselves that way.

This is your neck of the woods, if he had called you up, would you have
said "Go"?

I never tell anyone if they should go or not. That's their own decision
to
make.

20% of fatal GA accidents are at night even though night flights make up
only 5% of the GA traffic. Of those fatal accidents, the most common is
exactly the situation that Kennedy found himself. So it wasn't as if
Kennedy was in an easy situation and did something monumentally stupid.

The chain of mistakes he made was at least a small monument to
stupidity, imo.

No more so than the dozens of people who manage to kill themselves the same
way each year. To simply dismiss Kennedy as stupid and unskilled negates
any educational value which can be derived from the accident. Personally I
prefer to learn from the mistakes of others.

"Gezellig" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:24:22 GMT, Mike wrote:

His aircraft was having intermittent problems with its autopilot. He
may
have been preoccupied with it.

Personally I like to stay as high as I can, as long as I can. This
would
be
especially true over water. Making a 1000 fpm descent is preferable to
descending too soon and needing that extra altitude at some point.

I don't remember reading about the a/p problems. But your notion of
too steep a turn planned by the pilot seems to be refuted by the
airplane heading and airport location. There is little doubt he did
enter too steep a turn but the narrative suggests several turns in
different directions as well as variations in altitude that would not
have been justified by rational pilot decisions. He was without a
visible horizon and without the skills to fly without one.

So is everyone who flies VFR over the top or on a moonless night. Are
all
those pilots irrational as well? Perhaps, but if that's the case Kennedy
was no more or less irrational than thousands of other pilots who put
themselves into similar situations. That's my point.

"Clearly he was a victim of spatial disorientation, which certainly can
happen at night, but that particular night he had at least some
moonlight." Your comment from a previous post, Mike.

And I still stand by it. What's your point?

Mike writes:

To simply dismiss Kennedy as stupid and unskilled negates
any educational value which can be derived from the accident.

Other sources I've read indicate that he wasn't very skilled or intelligent
and had a tendency to be careless.

"Mxsmanic"
Other sources I've read indicate that he wasn't very skilled or
intelligent
and had a tendency to be careless.

At least he was actually a pilot and flew real airplanes, which is a few
orders of magnitude more than you've ever done.

On Oct 8, 11:14*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mike writes:
To simply dismiss Kennedy as stupid and unskilled negates
any educational value which can be derived from the accident.

Other sources I've read indicate that he wasn't very skilled or intelligent
and had a tendency to be careless.

Would you care to offer a reference for your comment regarding Jfk
Jr's intelligence? I had reason to look into this crash and pilot and
found ample evidence regarding bad judgment and risk taking but no
references regarding intelligence (as the word is commonly understood
-- distortions of its meaning are not welcome.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Mike writes:

To simply dismiss Kennedy as stupid and unskilled negates
any educational value which can be derived from the accident.

Other sources I've read indicate that he wasn't very skilled or
intelligent and had a tendency to be careless.


You're a fjukkwit.


Bertie

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:05:13 GMT, Mike wrote:

I never tell anyone if they should go or not. That's their own decision
to
make.

20% of fatal GA accidents are at night even though night flights make up
only 5% of the GA traffic. Of those fatal accidents, the most common is
exactly the situation that Kennedy found himself. So it wasn't as if
Kennedy was in an easy situation and did something monumentally stupid.

The chain of mistakes he made was at least a small monument to
stupidity, imo.

No more so than the dozens of people who manage to kill themselves the same
way each year. To simply dismiss Kennedy as stupid and unskilled negates
any educational value which can be derived from the accident. Personally I
prefer to learn from the mistakes of others.

To claim that stupidity is rampant doesn't dilute Kennedy's chain of
stupid mistakes. I dismissed nothing, I made an opine which was clear.

Is it not educational to learn when someone made a slew of stupid
mistakes?

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:17:35 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

I had reason to look into this crash and pilot and
found ample evidence regarding bad judgment and risk taking but no
references regarding intelligence (as the word is commonly understood
-- distortions of its meaning are not welcome.

He was very intelligent, anyone who listened to him would have to admit
that. That he was a high riskroller was an oft reported "given" of his
personality. These are important parts of the lessons to be learned, to
twist them is to murky the learning to be had.