[USA] What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

On Jan 28, 4:56*am, GK wrote:
Doing the math for you via the FAA database:

Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47

Similar ratio in New Zealand: 9 Duo Discus and 3 DG 1000 vs 17 PW5s.


Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.

All the DG1000's in NZ are now in clubs (2 Wellington, 1 Fielding),
and I think 2 of the Duos.

*The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?


I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!

John Cochrane

On Jan 27, 8:29*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
*The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?

I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!

John Cochrane

Really... Pilot Selection Policy is the problem? ... Really!

There have been a great number of U.S. "Big Names" finishing much
lower than than 7th in the "real" FAI Classes at Worlds over the past
MANY, MANY WGC's. Has the current Pilot Selection Policy been the
problem there??? And they have had the benefit of racing here at home
under the same classes and in the same ships they will at worlds. So
what is their excuse? Maybe because it is tough AND we persist with
tasking strategies and scoring formulas that are tailored for the
US,and the US alone.

The real problem is that U.S. Club Class Pilots do not race their
peers who specialize in club class, ever, until getting to Europe.
Give me a Club Class here like the Europeans have - Exactly like they
have, and I and others will concentrate on it, and when the people
who can afford own the newest ships "slum" to our affordability level
in apickup "old glider, will kick a great many "Big Name"/FAI Class
Pilot tail-ends.... Go Get'em Sean and Ryszard - real club class
pilots in real club class ships here in the USA..

I wish you the very best at worlds this summer BB - the US needs
someone, anyone, to win since its been a very long time indeed and we
need the boost. But until you actually go over to Europe, race under
their conditions and stipulations, in the pressure cooker of worlds,
and place higher than 7th; I will hold off crowning you "better" than
anyone we've sent to club class under the current selection policies.

If anyone can't tell, this constant denigration of the club class
concept and by association my skills, AND the skills of the other
pilots we have sent to Club Class WGC's, really ... ANGERS ME!

Thanks to the growing Club Class movement in the U.S., especially
those in Region 5. I only wish I could get to that regional to fly
club class here in the USA - unfortunately I will be going for another
national title with my girls rowing team at that time of year. Change
the dates or get some more club class waivers going and I'm there!

Respectfully if not angrily ,
Tim McAllister EY

If anyone wants to talk Club Class in Little Rock, look for the
bearded guy with steam coming out of his ears and maybe a Club Class
WGC US Team or event shirt on...

On Jan 27, 8:47*am, Tim wrote:
On Jan 27, 8:29*am, John Cochrane
wrote:





*The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?

I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!

John Cochrane

Really... Pilot Selection Policy is the problem? ... Really!

There have been a great number of U.S. "Big Names" finishing much
lower than than 7th in the "real" FAI Classes at Worlds over the past
MANY, MANY WGC's. Has the current Pilot Selection Policy been the
problem there??? And they have had the benefit of racing here at home
under the same classes and in the same ships they will at worlds. So
what is their excuse? Maybe because it is tough AND we persist with
tasking strategies and scoring formulas that are tailored for the
US,and the US alone.

The real problem is that U.S. Club Class Pilots do not race their
peers who specialize in club class, ever, until getting to Europe.
Give me a Club Class here like the Europeans have - Exactly like they
have, and I and others will concentrate on it, *and when the people
who can afford own the newest ships "slum" to our affordability level
in apickup "old glider, will kick a great many "Big Name"/FAI Class
Pilot *tail-ends.... Go Get'em Sean and Ryszard - real club class
pilots in real club class ships here in the USA..

I wish you the very best at worlds this summer BB - the US needs
someone, anyone, to win since its been a very long time indeed and we
need the boost. But until you actually go over to Europe, race under
their conditions and stipulations, in the pressure cooker of worlds,
and place higher than 7th; I will hold off crowning you "better" than
anyone we've sent to club class under the current selection policies.

If anyone can't tell, this constant denigration of the club class
concept and by association my skills, AND the skills of the other
pilots we have sent to Club Class WGC's, really ... ANGERS ME!

Thanks to the growing Club Class movement in the U.S., especially
those in Region 5. I only wish I could get to that regional to fly
club class here in the USA - unfortunately I will be going for another
national title with my girls rowing team at that time of year. Change
the dates or get some more club class waivers going and I'm there!

Respectfully if not angrily ,
Tim McAllister EY

If anyone wants to talk Club Class in Little Rock, look for the
bearded guy with steam coming out of his ears and maybe a Club Class
WGC US Team or event shirt on...

Tim,

I don't think anyone is against the Club class, only the pathetic team
selection process in the USA for all classes. Right now being willing
to travel thousands of miles has nearly the same weight as being a
good pilot.

Lets take a back of envelope approach to the current US system.

Pilot A flies an ASG-29; in year one he wins the 15M contest, in year
two he wins the 18M contest and in year three he wins the Sports class
contest. He has decided that he doesn't like to travel thousands of
miles so flies only in his part of the country.

Pilot B flies an ASW-27 and competes in the 15M contest all three
years placing 5th each year.

Which one is the better pilot and should represent the USA in the
international contests?

Pilot A has no chance because the current system only calculates
points from one class with no cross class points.

Pilot B could likely end up on the US team because very few pilots are
willing to cross the country each year to compete in one class. I
feel sorry for any East coast Open class pilots. There have been no
contests in the east in the last 5 contest seasons.

We make it even worse with the Club class selection rules that say you
can not have competed at the Worlds before and must fly a Club class
glider at the Sports class nationals to qualify. If you specialize in
Club class you only can go to the worlds once and can't be on the team
again.

I hope the US team and contest committee will really look at the rules
in the future and listen to the feedback they got this year about the
time and driving issues for contests. The only way change will be
made is to present a fully written proposal because they don't have
time at the meeting to really discuss the issues.

On Jan 27, 9:29*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
*The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?

I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!

John Cochrane

Handicapped comps in old gliders -- however much fun at the local
level -- have never made any sense to me at the World's. We know
handicaps are imperfect. We know the imperfections become more
significant as the pilots get better. I've seen with my own eyes how
the competition that's fun for tyros turns into a blowout when a good
pilot turns up with a ringer. Club class has fewer embedded problems
here than the US Sports class, largely due to accepting a narrower
performance range of gliders... but the motivations for Club or Sports
that are so compelling at the regional level simply aren't relevant at
a World comp.

Take Andy, G, Karl and Gary for instance. Does putting Andy in an
LS-1, G in a 20, Karl in an ASW-15 and Gary in a Mosquito really add
anything over watching them slug it out in modern 15m (or 18m, or
standard) class ships? It's quaint and amusing sure, but if you're
asking for my donation to support the team, I'd much rather see them
in a non-handicapped class.

The selection process we use for the US Club class team is a separate
issue and makes one wonder what's in our water supply.

-Evan Ludeman / T8