Forgiving sailplanes

bildan wrote:
I don't think you can "buy" safety

I don't think you can buy absolute safety either. But damned if I can see
what that has to do with the OP's question.

Do you think pilots wanting seat belts in their aircraft is a sign they are
danger to themselves and others?

On 7/20/2010 1:24 PM, bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 8:35 am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

No doubt this thread will have a long run.

My view is that all gliders are 'forgiving' - if flown by a qualified
pilot. OTOH, unqualified pilots can wreck any glider no matter how
'forgiving'.

In any event, 'forgiving' handling qualities has little to do with the
safety of the pilot. Any glider, no matter how 'forgiving' can be
flown into a very unforgiving Earth. They will still collide with
mountains and other gliders. Trees and other obstacles can still
wreck them. The number of accidents with poor handling qualities as
the primary cause is virtually non-existent.

What's REALLY unforgiving is nature. Make enough mistakes and 'ol
Mother Nature will kill or maim you. She's merciless. Her goal is
just cleaning the gene pool.

So, forget handling qualities and worry about flying skills. They're
FAR more important.


Well between Bill D. and Eric G. it didn't take long to 'answerically'
touch upon both ends of the philosophic spectrum to the initial question!

FWIW, while I don't disagree with anything Eric wrote, neither do I
disagree with Bill. (And, no, I am not a politician seeking agreement
with everyone!) So how do I reconcile my wildly diverging viewpoints?

Easy.

If there really and truly exists a Joe Glider Pilot who opts to
seriously believe that by buying a 'forgiving sailplane' to the
exclusion of not also mentally and physically actively working the
personal-skills-development side of their piloting, I'll bet real money
they'll sooner or later have an 'absence-of-skills/judgment-related'
accident of some kind. (To use a power-plane-related example, think
'Ercoupe'. In the glider world, think 'G-103', AS K-21' etc. Each type
is immensely docile in many ways...and each routinely crunched.)

Nor is the continuing development of flight/judgment skills inoculation
against having accidents...but personally, I'd much rather ride with a
pilot who continually works to hone such skills, than one complacent to
the point of not recognizing their value.

That said, I also happen to believe that the differences between
'world's most forgiving glider' and 'world's most treacherous' are
'talkworthy-small'. I write that, as a pilot who learned on Schweizers,
and (with but 400 total hours) transitioned (safely and essentially
uneventfully) to a glider many pilots would probably off-the-cuff
conclude is a handful. (The 'handful' is a no-spoilers, side-sticked,
1st-generation, 15-meter fiberglass Zuni.) Prior to that I flew a
homebuilt 55-foot-span, V-tailed, HP-14...again
landing-flaps-only/no-spoilers...you don't have to search far to find
all sorts of horror stories about the difficulties of flying Schreder
gliders.

At transition time(s) I didn't consider myself God's gift to the soaring
world (still don't, chortle). Nor did I ever consider the HP-14 or the
Zuni 'a handful'. (Both - within their limitations - are, in truth,
pussycats.)

Meanwhile, my longtime club has historically had one or another example
of Schweizer 2-32. Now *there's* a Schweizer ready to bite the
unskilled, unrespectful, unwary or non-listening!!! Am I badmouthing it?
Heavens, no! It's a great ship. Further, nothing in our club checkout
rules for it would lead a casual reader to distinguish the 2-32 from our
G-103. Yet, they're completely different gliders, as any flight
involving spin attempts would beautifully/'instantly' illustrate.
Furthermore, *any* checkout flight could also be expected to clearly
strongly hint at why entirely different pattern 'thinking' is taught for
the two ship types, as well. Yet, non-instructor-me will happily ride
with any of our recently-checked-out pilots in either ship...so long as
i think they're seriously interested in continuing to develop their
skills and judgment.

Seriously,
Bob - pilot-skill spectrum far exceeds 'glider-difficulty' spectrum - W.

On Jul 20, 10:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

[ Smile ] My ASW-15 probably forgave me many times!

Actually the ASW-15 is a great ship - quick to turn - "talks" through
the wings and always got me to an airport - albeit not always the home
airport!

On Jul 20, 7:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

Well it's obvious from the replies thus far that you will need to
define what you mean by "forgiving".

it could range from - If I hit something really hard with it will I
die.

to

If I make the slightest uncoordinated control input will I spin down
through the gaggle and take out three of my friends

to

If the drogue chute fails to deploy do have any chance of making an
off airport landing without breaking the glider

to

If I fart is it well enough ventilated that I won't pass out, enter an
unrecoverable spin, and die

or maybe

If I don't make perfect control inputs all the time will it cost me
more than .05% performance.

What did you mean?? What forgiveness are you seeking?

Andy

Andy wrote:
On Jul 20, 7:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

Well it's obvious from the replies thus far that you will need to
define what you mean by "forgiving".

I thought he defined "forgiving" by providing examples?

it could range from - If I hit something really hard with it will I
die.

Can you do that with the examples he gave? (After the abuse I put on an
SGS 2-33A and living to tell the tale....)

If I make the slightest uncoordinated control input will I spin down
through the gaggle and take out three of my friends

How about three enemies?

What did you mean?? What forgiveness are you seeking?

Maybe he wants a Catholic glider?

"Forgive me Father, for I have spinned...."

;-)

On Jul 20, 9:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdE...eature=related

This is one way a sailplane can be forgiving. I believe the pilot
flew it the next day. The only damage was an aileron bell crank cover
which popped off. Kudos to the pilot, this was a sudden storm which
came up during a contest, several other gliders landed out and this
one, coming in very fast saw another glider which had skidded into a
180 in front of him. He initiated a course correction to avoid
hitting the other glider.

On Jul 20, 11:04*pm, Steve wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:35*am, EvValentin808

wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdE...eature=related

This is one way a sailplane can be forgiving. *I believe the pilot
flew it the next day. *The only damage was an aileron bell crank cover
which popped off. *Kudos to the pilot, this was a sudden storm which
came up during a contest, several other gliders landed out and this
one, coming in very fast saw another glider which had skidded into a
180 in front of him. *He initiated a course correction to avoid
hitting the other glider.

Actually, I think this video illustrates one of Bill's (other) points
fairly well.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 20, 11:04*pm, Steve wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:35*am, EvValentin808

wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdE...eature=related

This is one way a sailplane can be forgiving. *I believe the pilot
flew it the next day. *The only damage was an aileron bell crank cover
which popped off. *Kudos to the pilot, this was a sudden storm which
came up during a contest, several other gliders landed out and this
one, coming in very fast saw another glider which had skidded into a
180 in front of him. *He initiated a course correction to avoid
hitting the other glider.

I think that video provides a great illustration of Bill's points on
airmanship.

I don't know who got away with this landing... but I do hope that he
isn't tempted to try something like this again.

And yeah... I've done dumb stuff too. No ivory tower here.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 20, 10:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

Ignore all the nastiness below, and get yourself a late-model LS-4.
Earlier models almost as nice but the automatic
hookups are more forgiving.
You'll love it !
Best Regards, Dave

I agree with Dave.
Get an LS4.
It has such a solid feeling when flying and is very very stable.
The airbrake/gear control interlock is a nice feature also.
Guy