Airplane prices are ridiculous

Mark writes:

Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market, ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation, and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes. These factors are absent or nearly
absent for automobiles, which have a huge, expanding market, relatively
insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually
no certification requirements.

On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's
growing.

ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation

With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.

How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.

These factors are absent or nearly
absent for automobiles,

Wait a second. I would dare say that MANY lawsuits
stem from car related incidents and FEW lawsuits are
incurred (proportionally speaking) with private pilots in
single engine planes.

which have a huge, expanding market, relatively
insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually
no certification requirements.

---
Mark

Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09Â*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. Â*And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.


ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation

With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?

The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.

How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.

The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs
the manufacturer big bucks.

The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years.


--
Jim Pennino

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On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.
Unfortunately the economy right now is killing growth.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.

Yes sales are off. Interest is still high.
Conclusion: The friggin' planes cost too much.

ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation

With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?

The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.

How so? *Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.

The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs
the manufacturer big bucks.

The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years.

Reminiscent of the FDA.

--
Jim Pennino

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- Show quoted text -

Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? Â*I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.

Yes sales are off. Interest is still high.

And from what market study did you get that information?

The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

Nope, basically a litigious society winning suites for airplanes built
over two decades ago are driving up the cost of planes and driving parts
makers out of business.



--
Jim Pennino

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Mark writes:

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

I'm sure there are many people who are interested in flying their own
airplanes, but either their interest isn't great enough for them to overcome
all the many obstacles to flying for fun, or they just don't have the money
for it.

The situation is likely to only get worse.

Yes sales are off. Interest is still high.
Conclusion: The friggin' planes cost too much.

It's not just the cost of the airplanes. It's all the overhead associated with
flying in general. You cannot simply buy a plane, jump in, and fly around.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

Only in part. And in any case, greed isn't likely to disappear.

Reminiscent of the FDA.

Exactly. That's why so many orphan drugs fall by the wayside. Those orphan
drugs are a lot like private airplanes.

On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:23:36 -0000, wrote:

Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

Matches his clouded dementia.
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

Mark writes:

Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's
growing.

Lots of reasons, which might include:

- Reduced buying power
- Greater choice of leisure-time activities (travel, computers, etc.)
- Loss of the glamour associated with aviation due to mass-market air travel
- Diminished willingness to take risks in a society that is more and more
fearful about everything (thank the media for that)
- Ever-increasing risks of litigation of all kinds
- Paranoia over the "dangers" of aviation, instrinsic and extrinsic
- Ever-increasing regulatory restrictions and burden

Back around 1970 or so, it wasn't that far-fetched to consider an airplane for
the family. It was kind of like buying a nice boat to use at the local lake.
But today things have changed, and having one's own airplane is considered
more exotic, more inaccessible, and more bizarre than it used to be.

With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?

Insurance is expensive, and the greater the amount of litigation, the higher
the premiums go. Insurance is a concern for airplane manufacturers, airports,
airplane owners, and airplane pilots. They all have to pay and pay, lawsuits
are a constant menace, and even a single lawsuit can raise premiums beyond
reach.

How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.

Certification of an airplane has nothing to do with flight school. When every
nut and bolt must be certified and traced, it gets very expensive to build an
airplane.

That's why there are no truly new engine designs, and very few overall changes
to private aircraft. (Airliners have changed more, but there's a lot more
money available to pay for the certification.)

Wait a second. I would dare say that MANY lawsuits
stem from car related incidents and FEW lawsuits are
incurred (proportionally speaking) with private pilots in
single engine planes.

The incidence of lawsuits per capita or per trip is much higher for aircraft,
especially in dollar terms.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:

Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market, ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation, and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes. These factors are absent or nearly
absent for automobiles, which have a huge, expanding market, relatively
insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually
no certification requirements.

Actually the automobile market has all those concerns, which is why you don't
see new, low volume cars like the Morgan in the USA. They can't afford to
meet all those requirements at their volume level. One Morgan executive
once commented that the US crash testing requirements alone whould require
most of a years production.

It is the huge volume of mass produced cars that spreads those costs over
so many units that the compliance cost per unit becomes trivial.


--
Jim Pennino

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