Airplane prices are ridiculous

On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.
Unfortunately the economy right now is killing growth.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.

Yes sales are off. Interest is still high.
Conclusion: The friggin' planes cost too much.

ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation

With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?

The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.

How so? *Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.

The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs
the manufacturer big bucks.

The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years.

Reminiscent of the FDA.

--
Jim Pennino

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Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:

A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? Â*I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.

Yes sales are off. Interest is still high.

And from what market study did you get that information?

The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

Nope, basically a litigious society winning suites for airplanes built
over two decades ago are driving up the cost of planes and driving parts
makers out of business.



--
Jim Pennino

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On Sep 10, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

Yes, and you want to know why? Because the planes
are overpriced.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.

Yes sales are off. *Interest is still high.

And from what market study did you get that information?

It's a culmulative understanding from multiple sources,
and partially driven by baby boomers who now have
interest in the LSA market. I've also been to 3 different
flight schools in the last year, and reading extensively
from AOPA and other sources. Yes it's my opinion, and
I find it trivial to dig up hard numbers. Market studies
are usually agenda driven.

The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. *Look at the spread sheets. *( A.I.G.) *So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

Nope, basically a litigious society winning suites for airplanes built
over two decades ago are driving up the cost of planes and driving parts
makers out of business.

So you're saying tort reform would entice companies like
Arion aircraft and Piper sport to stop asking 135,000.00?

Heh. Thanks for your input Jim. I'll look into it.

---
Mark

--
Jim Pennino

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Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:53Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? Â*I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

Yes, and you want to know why? Because the planes
are overpriced.

No, it is because most people have no interest what so ever in owning an
airplane and in fact a very large number of people are scared of "little"
airplanes.

Yes sales are off. Â*Interest is still high.

And from what market study did you get that information?

It's a culmulative understanding from multiple sources,
and partially driven by baby boomers who now have
interest in the LSA market.

Mostly because the operating costs are low and you don't need to be able
to pass a medical.


--
Jim Pennino

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On Sep 10, 9:30*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

Yes, and you want to know why? *Because the planes
are overpriced.

No, it is because most people have no interest what so ever in owning an
airplane and in fact a very large number of people are scared of "little"
airplanes.

Yes sales are off. *Interest is still high.

And from what market study did you get that information?

It's a culmulative understanding from multiple sources,
and partially driven by baby boomers who now have
interest in the LSA market.

Mostly because the operating costs are low and you don't need to be able
to pass a medical.

--
Jim Pennino

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I wrote something about this a while ago, paraphrasing here


I use general aviation a lot, and own a Mooney built 30 some years
ago. I think the
opportunities for general aviation have been going down, as measured
by the size of the fleet, the number of pilots, and hours flown -- all
generally available information -- since about the 70s. Fuel costs
will keep rising, the demand
for oil products is overtaking overtaking supply, increased regulation
will add artificial costs that have to paid for with real dollars, and
the need for physical travel will probably decline with increasing
digital communication. I see this happening now -- decision makers
that I used to visit are happier to take a virtual meeting than a
real one, and the coming generation is better at that kind of
communication than we are.

A for electric airplanes, it's going to be a long time before anything
weighing 6 pounds and occupying 231 cubic inches will hold the amount
of easily controlled energy a gallon of av-gas does.

OK, think like a manager. Do a strategic plan. We start with a SWOT
analysis -- strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. Do you
hear of any venture capitalists lining up to invest in general
aviation? It's a weak and declining market, the threats are commercial
aviation and digital communications, virtual travel. The strength for
non hobby SEL is, economic door to door travel time in the 200 to say
700 or 900 mile range is probably faster in an M20J than other
methods. The door to door time means deciding when to travel on your
own schedule, not an airline's. That also means if a business meeting
ends early or late, I can still be wheels up 15 minutes after getting
to the airport, and I can use an outlier airport if it's closer to
where I'm going. And the opportunity? When companies like Mooney and
Cessna and the like, managed by people whose careers depend on being
on top of things, are struggling, there simply isn't much
opportunity.

I'm not going to bother looking it up, but would probably bet the
average in use SEL general aviation airplane is at least 25 years old.
If true that does not say much for the state of the art, does it?

I can hear my grand children, in an oil poor world a couple of decades
from now, saying "Granddad A, you flew your own airplane? Why?"

On Sep 10, 9:30*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:53*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

Yes, and you want to know why? *Because the planes
are overpriced.

No, it is because most people have no interest what so ever in owning an
airplane and in fact a very large number of people are scared of "little"
airplanes.

So you're saying the decline in aviation sales is due to:

1) fear
2) lack of interest

I won't implore you to provide a "market survey" to
cooberate your opinion but my opinion is that general
aviation is simply pricing itself out of business.


Yes sales are off. *Interest is still high.

And from what market study did you get that information?

It's a culmulative understanding from multiple sources,
and partially driven by baby boomers who now have
interest in the LSA market.

Mostly because the operating costs are low and you don't need to be able
to pass a medical.

I agree 100%

---
Mark

--
Jim Pennino

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Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 9:30Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:53Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:23Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
A shrinking market,

Why do you think the market is shrinking? Â*I think it's
growing.

Then your thinking is clouded.

The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.

Your thoughts are not reflected by sales figures.

Yes, and you want to know why? Â*Because the planes
are overpriced.

No, it is because most people have no interest what so ever in owning an
airplane and in fact a very large number of people are scared of "little"
airplanes.

So you're saying the decline in aviation sales is due to:

1) fear
2) lack of interest

No I'm saying the general public, most people, the mass market, has no
interest in owning an airplane.

Sales are shrinking mostly because we are in an economic downturn, not because
airplanes are "overpriced", whatever that means.


--
Jim Pennino

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Mark writes:

So you're saying tort reform would entice companies like
Arion aircraft and Piper sport to stop asking 135,000.00?

It would reduce prices somewhat, just as it induced manufacturers to start
building private airplanes again after liability crises some years ago.

Mark wrote:
So you're saying tort reform would entice companies like
Arion aircraft and Piper sport to stop asking 135,000.00?

Um, the Arion Lightning is available for just under US$94k.[1]
It can be flown at 138 mph to any airfield in the U.S.

A 2010 Aston Martin Rapide has a list price of US$200k.
A 2010 Dodge Viper has a list price of US$91k.

The fastest either of those two sports cars can be driven on highways in
the U.S. is 80 mph.[3]

A Sonex aircraft (low wing, two person, metal construction) could be
built for under US$40k and be flown at 170 mph to any airfield in the
U.S.

A 2010 Porsche Boxster has a list price of US$48k and is limited to 80
mph (and typically less) on U.S. roads.

The limiting factor of airplanes is that they only take you from one
airfield to another. Ground transportation is needed at both ends. This
is, in my view, the aspect that limits the utility of airplanes.

[1] http://www.flylightning.net/images/p...ht%20Sport.pdf
[2] http://www.automotive.com/new-cars/p...rts/index.html
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_l..._United_States
[4] http://www.sonexaircraft.com/aircraft/sonex.html
[5] http://www.sonexaircraft.com/kits/pricing.html

On Sep 11, 3:06*pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
Mark wrote:
So you're saying tort reform would entice companies like
Arion aircraft *and Piper sport to stop asking 135,000.00?

Um, the Arion Lightning is available for just under US$94k.[1]
It can be flown at 138 mph to any airfield in the U.S.

A 2010 Aston Martin Rapide has a list price of US$200k.
A 2010 Dodge Viper has a list price of US$91k.

The fastest either of those two sports cars can be driven on highways in
the U.S. is 80 mph.[3]

A Sonex aircraft (low wing, two person, metal construction) could be
built for under US$40k and be flown at 170 mph to any airfield in the
U.S.

A 2010 Porsche Boxster has a list price of US$48k and is limited to 80
mph (and typically less) on U.S. roads.

The limiting factor of airplanes is that they only take you from one
airfield to another. Ground transportation is needed at both ends. This
is, in my view, the aspect that limits the utility of airplanes.

[1]http://www.flylightning.net/images/pdf/2009%20Price%20Sheet%20Light%2....
[2]http://www.automotive.com/new-cars/pricing/27/sports/index.html
[3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States
[4]http://www.sonexaircraft.com/aircraft/sonex.html
[5]http://www.sonexaircraft.com/kits/pricing.html

I'm not sure why you've listed expensive autos
here. Look at the KIA sorento. For 20K you can
get this vehicle which looks very nice inside and
out. (yes, I know...autos, mass production, etc)
http://www.bing.com/autos/search?yea...re nto+prices

Or more for my tastes, the Ford F-250 Super Duty
often lists (decked out) near 60K, but you can pick
them up all day long (used) for 22K.

What "grinds my gears" is the fact that planes used
to be accessable to middle class America and now
even the most rudimentary planes (usually a pre-owned
home built) cost double what a very nice auto does.

If the reasons are research and development,
certification, liability, and interest to investors,
well this wasn't a big problem during the 70's
and '80's. Planes were 5 times cheaper.

In other news:

You can have a rental car waiting for you in my area
for a little over 20 bucks. That's negligible if you don't
do it every day.

However I just bought one of these, and I love it:
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/story/fx/

---
Mark