bush rules!

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"
As a disinterested (ie I have no time for either of them) foreign
observer I find this whole squabble rather amusing

IRC Clinton never actually claimed to have burnt his draft
card he just went to University in the UK and kinda forgot
he was supposed to join the army, musta been that marijuana
he didnt inhale

I once read a detailed description of exactly how he got out of
both service in Vietnam AND National Guard duty in the US without
a deferment, being ruled out for health reasons, or consientious
objector status. Then I read it again. The process was sufficiently
convoluted that it made my head hurt.

Anyhow, WJ Clinton is not President, one might as well criticize
Grover Cleveland for hiring someone to replace him after he was
drafted.

GW Bush is Presient. I do not care to defend any of the three.

2) AFAIK, Clinton has denied nothing you alleged above.

3) I am not convinced that Bush was AWOL, it appears that at worse
he was left without orders to appear anywhere in particular for
about a year. Certainly a far cry from volunteering for combat
duty however.


In fact he was apparently in the national guard reserve at the time
and this was the period after he had volunteered and been
turned down for active service.

Huh? I never heard anyone claim that GWB volunteered for active duty.
Also, in the US the National Guard and the Reserves are different
outfits, though in the last 15 years or so the National Guard have
been called to active duty more than any time since WWII I think.

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.

Given the aircraft he trained
on was being phased out and the war was winding down I
kind of doubt he was the only one who did less than the
optimum with regard to service.


My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.

But the documents posted online indicate that his commander in TX
gave him verbal permission to transfer to an AL unit in advance
of written orders. After that transfer was officially denied,
it appears no one ordered him back to duty in TX. And no one
noticed for about 14 months at which time GWB asked for an
early discharge. Which he got.

Maybe he did some duty somewhere during that time but if so,
no one seems to know what or where.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in 20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11 added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron. Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.



My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.


One of his instructors stated not long ago that his flying skills were
better than average.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in 20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11 added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron. Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.


Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.



My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.


One of his instructors stated not long ago that his flying skills were
better than average.

Then my guess would be wrong, which is a chronic problem with guessing.
Can you name the instructor, or recall where you heard/read that?

Although I am far more concerned with how he conducts himself today
as President than with how he conducted himself back then, it never
hurts to know facts.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in
20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three
Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11
added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.
Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.


Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.

No, that is not all of the deployed Guardsmen. In addition to the deployed
units, at least one activated unit (an infantry brigade out of Hawaii) found
itself transferring troops out as individual replacements destined for
Vietnam. In addition, there were troops and officers from the Guard who
volunteered individually for active duty and saw service in Vietnam.

LBJ failed to activate the Guard and Reserve early in the conflict because
he was afraid of the political backlash--but as the war drew down the lesson
that had been learned was that failing to activate in larger measure the
reserve components had actually been a factor that adversely affected
support at the root level of the nation for the effort. Hence Abrams
returned from commanding MACV to assignment as Army C/S and immediately
instituted the "Total Army" program which saw the reserve components so
enmeshed in the operational fabric of the service that it would be
impossible to embark on any future major military endeavor without
conducting significant mobilizations at the outset.

And be careful casting any "broad brush" strokes regarding the Guard during
Vietnam; while there were undoubtedly some folks in the Guard who thought
that was a way for them to serve without their likely having to go to
Vietnam, there were also a lot of veterans who had joined the Guard well
before the Vietnam conflict, many of whom had been Korean War veterans, and
all returning Vietnam veterans did not immediately run for the nearest VVAW
chapter either--many joined local Guard units (my brother returned from his
combat tour and immediately joined the Guard).




My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.


One of his instructors stated not long ago that his flying skills were
better than average.

Then my guess would be wrong, which is a chronic problem with guessing.
Can you name the instructor, or recall where you heard/read that?

Maurice Udell was the name given in the newspapers just this week:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/p...namechoes.html

Brooks


Although I am far more concerned with how he conducts himself today
as President than with how he conducted himself back then, it never
hurts to know facts.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam.


No. The Convair F-102 was the interceptor of choice in the earlier part of
direct US military operations in Vietnam. In mid-1968, the USAF was
running short of experienced F-102 drivers. Not surprising, since by that
time the ANG had been the primary operator of that aircraft for some years.
Guard pilots were sought to volunteer for 90 or 180 day tours to fill out
the F-102 squadrons. That program was called Palace Alert.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn of other Guard involvement in Vietnam, but
that's all I'm aware of.



IF so, T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.


Yup. But that was a policy decision made by President Johnson. The joint
chiefs wanted to employ the Guard and ANG as early as 1964. LBJ could have
changed his policy at any time, and by March 1968 it was known that someone
other than Johnson would be president in January 1969. Perhaps someone that
didn't agree with Johnson's policy.



Then my guess would be wrong, which is a chronic problem with
guessing. Can you name the instructor, or recall where you heard/read
that?


His name was Maurice H. Udell.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/pu...cle_5025.shtml

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen in
20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger), 151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three
Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11
added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.
Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.


Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.

President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS
Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he
emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet Nam,
this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the men
were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf, mostly
from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the
Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were KIA
while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned.

"dougdrivr" wrote in message
...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen
in
20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam
War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger),
151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the
most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three
Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April 11
added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.
Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.


Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.

President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS
Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he
emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet
Nam,
this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the men
were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf,
mostly
from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the
Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were KIA
while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned.

Interesting; I had thought the guys out of the Hawaii ARNG brigade were the
only ones who went through that kind of treatment. Incidents like your's
were a sore point in the relationship between the ARNG and active Army for a
long time. But FYI, a number of ARNG units, complete with flags, were indeed
deployed to Vietnam under that same mobilization effort. As another poster
has already mentioned, the INARNG's D-51st Inf Co (Ranger) was one, and a
few arty battalions and some CS/CSS units also made the trip. IIRC an arty
unit from the KYARNG was involved in a rather close fight when its firebase
came under attack. And IIRC those KIA's you mention were not included in the
ARNG KIA total for the war, since they were considered active component
individual fillers when they became casualties; ISTR the deployed Guard
units suffered just under one hundred KIA during their period in country.

Brooks

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"dougdrivr" wrote in message
...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen
in
20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam
War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger),
151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the
most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three
Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April
11
added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.
Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.


Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.

President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS
Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he
emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet
Nam,
this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the
men
were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf,
mostly
from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the
Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were
KIA
while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned.

Interesting; I had thought the guys out of the Hawaii ARNG brigade were
the
only ones who went through that kind of treatment. Incidents like your's
were a sore point in the relationship between the ARNG and active Army for
a
long time. But FYI, a number of ARNG units, complete with flags, were
indeed
deployed to Vietnam under that same mobilization effort. As another poster
has already mentioned, the INARNG's D-51st Inf Co (Ranger) was one, and a
few arty battalions and some CS/CSS units also made the trip. IIRC an arty
unit from the KYARNG was involved in a rather close fight when its
firebase
came under attack. And IIRC those KIA's you mention were not included in
the
ARNG KIA total for the war, since they were considered active component
individual fillers when they became casualties; ISTR the deployed Guard
units suffered just under one hundred KIA during their period in country.

Brooks


Thanks, I didn't know that about the deployed intact units. Someone posted
somewhere else that 5700 of the dead in Viet Nam were National Guard. That
seems a bit high and probably refers to NG casualties. It would be easy
enough to check because in those days your serial number was prefixed with
NG and everyone knew where you came from when you had to deal with
personnel.

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

GW Bush is Presient. I do not care to defend any of the three.

2) AFAIK, Clinton has denied nothing you alleged above.

3) I am not convinced that Bush was AWOL, it appears that at worse
he was left without orders to appear anywhere in particular for
about a year. Certainly a far cry from volunteering for combat
duty however.


In fact he was apparently in the national guard reserve at the time
and this was the period after he had volunteered and been
turned down for active service.

Huh? I never heard anyone claim that GWB volunteered for active duty.

The following was extracted from http://www.greaterthings.com

"At this point in the Vietnam War, the US Air Force desperately needed
additional F-102 pilots to fly the dangerous reconnaissance missions so
important to the fate of American troops on the ground. With only a small amount
of solo flying experience, Bush applied for a voluntary three month Vietnam
tour, perhaps counting on preferential treatment once again to overcome his lack
of readiness, or perhaps safe in the knowledge that his request would certainly
be rejected."

Parenthetically, during his interview by Tim Russert on Meet the Press, Feb.8,
2004, Bush denied ever volunteering for service in Viet Nam. How sad that he
couldn't remember doing it; I still have my 201 file dating back to WWII, which
contains stuff like copies of volunteer statements, special orders, etc. I'm
amazed that somebody as highly organized as he is somehow apparently misplaced
his.

Also, in the US the National Guard and the Reserves are different
outfits, though in the last 15 years or so the National Guard have
been called to active duty more than any time since WWII I think.

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.

I believe there were some National Guard troops who served in VN. Cong.
Gephardt (D-Mo), for one, was in the Missouri ANG and served in VN.

Given the aircraft he trained
on was being phased out and the war was winding down I
kind of doubt he was the only one who did less than the
optimum with regard to service.

That may be true, but he undoubtedly was the only President who lied about it.
AIR, Clinton had applied for entrance to the ROTC and, when the Selective
Service System initiated the use of lotteries to determine which registrants
would be called for service, and Clinton drew a high number (#311), he withdrew
his application for entrance to the ROTC. He subjected himself to the draft
process, which never got around to calling him. Many other Americans did the
exact same thing, and it did not involve telling lies, merely taking advantage
of the system that had been set up to provide equity in selection.


My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.

But the documents posted online indicate that his commander in TX
gave him verbal permission to transfer to an AL unit in advance
of written orders. After that transfer was officially denied,
it appears no one ordered him back to duty in TX. And no one
noticed for about 14 months at which time GWB asked for an
early discharge. Which he got.

Maybe he did some duty somewhere during that time but if so,
no one seems to know what or where.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

GW Bush is Presient. I do not care to defend any of the three.

2) AFAIK, Clinton has denied nothing you alleged above.

3) I am not convinced that Bush was AWOL, it appears that at worse
he was left without orders to appear anywhere in particular for
about a year. Certainly a far cry from volunteering for combat
duty however.


In fact he was apparently in the national guard reserve at the time
and this was the period after he had volunteered and been
turned down for active service.

Huh? I never heard anyone claim that GWB volunteered for active duty.

The following was extracted from http://www.greaterthings.com

"At this point in the Vietnam War, the US Air Force desperately needed
additional F-102 pilots to fly the dangerous reconnaissance missions so
important to the fate of American troops on the ground. With only a small
amount
of solo flying experience, Bush applied for a voluntary three month
Vietnam
tour, perhaps counting on preferential treatment once again to overcome
his lack
of readiness, or perhaps safe in the knowledge that his request would
certainly
be rejected."

What utter crap. So the F-102 was flying, "... the dangerous reconnaissance
missions so important to the fate of American troops on the ground"? That
statement alone opens the entire quote to scrutiny in terms of veracity,
since F-102's were NOT performing reconnaissance missions "important to the
fate of American troops on the ground".


Parenthetically, during his interview by Tim Russert on Meet the Press,
Feb.8,
2004, Bush denied ever volunteering for service in Viet Nam. How sad that
he
couldn't remember doing it; I still have my 201 file dating back to WWII,
which
contains stuff like copies of volunteer statements, special orders, etc.
I'm
amazed that somebody as highly organized as he is somehow apparently
misplaced
his.

Uhmm...that is not exactly the way it was reported. Russert asked if he
"didn't volunteer or enlist to go" to Vietnam; in other words, did he join
the military with the sole intent of going to Vietnam. There were an awful
lot of folks who volunteered for military service during that time and took
what assignment they were given; my old high school history teacher ended up
serving as an MP in Germany, is he somehow guilty of "dishonorable" service?
Bush (and others) have verified that he did indeed volunteer for Palace
Alert duty. Place Alert was a program that could have taken him to any
number of duty stations, including Vietnam.

Russert: But you didn't volunteer or enlist to go.
President Bush: No, I didn't. You're right. I served. I flew fighters and
enjoyed it, and we provided a service to our country. In those days we had
what was called "Air Defense Command," and it was part of the air defense
command system.


Also, in the US the National Guard and the Reserves are different
outfits, though in the last 15 years or so the National Guard have
been called to active duty more than any time since WWII I think.

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.

I believe there were some National Guard troops who served in VN. Cong.
Gephardt (D-Mo), for one, was in the Missouri ANG and served in VN.

Given the aircraft he trained
on was being phased out and the war was winding down I
kind of doubt he was the only one who did less than the
optimum with regard to service.

That may be true, but he undoubtedly was the only President who lied about
it.

How has he lied about it? Sounds like another George Z. fabrication is
brewing...

AIR, Clinton had applied for entrance to the ROTC and, when the Selective
Service System initiated the use of lotteries to determine which
registrants
would be called for service, and Clinton drew a high number (#311), he
withdrew
his application for entrance to the ROTC.

How convenient for you to forget the part about him seeking entrance into
ROTC using political pull (something you are oh-so-quick to claim in the
case of Bush and the ANG), and his later letter to the ROTC PMS:

"First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft...I am
writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to
understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves
still loving their country but loathing the military..."

He subjected himself to the draft

By his own admission he did NOT do that. In addition to admitting that COL
Holmes had "saved him from the draft", he went on to say:

"At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1-D
deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self-regard and
self-confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by
eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on
September 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my
draft board saying basically what is in the last paragraph, thanking him for
trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn
't do the R.O.T.C. after all and would he please draft me as soon as
possible." I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day
until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter
because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the army and maybe going
to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished
myself and gotten what I deserved."

process, which never got around to calling him.

Because he had used the ROTC PMS to step around his availability,
immediately discarding ROTC when it became apparent he was not going to in
fact be drafted. Note that he did not send that letter to COL Holmes until
*after* he was assured he was safe from the draft.

Many other Americans did the
exact same thing, and it did not involve telling lies, merely taking
advantage
of the system that had been set up to provide equity in selection.

Sounds like Clinton did indeed lie, repeatedly. He lied to COL Holmes when
he said he really was interested in the ROTC, and later admitted he had not
been interested in it for any reason other than avoiding the draft and
getting that coveted deferrment statement from the good colonel. And, even
worse, he either lied when he admitted to "loathing" the military, or later
when he miraculously claimed to admire all of those fine young people who
served--which was it?



My guess is that he was such a crappy pilot his commander in TX
was glad to see him quit flying befor he screwed his aircraft
into the ground.

But the documents posted online indicate that his commander in TX
gave him verbal permission to transfer to an AL unit in advance
of written orders. After that transfer was officially denied,
it appears no one ordered him back to duty in TX. And no one
noticed for about 14 months at which time GWB asked for an
early discharge. Which he got.

Maybe he did some duty somewhere during that time but if so,
no one seems to know what or where.

His duty performance has been scrutinized by very critical media
opponents--none have been able to deny he completed his service obligation
and was honorably discharged. That you can't seem to accept that, while
excusing every mealy-mouthed lie and dodge perpetrated by your hero Clinton
in his active and deceitful avoidance of *any* kind of military service is
hardly surprising given your demonstrated bias to date.

Brooks